General Information

Coach Cars

1. Chair Car and coach bodies were basically the same, but the interior differences are explained in Volume 1 and shown in photos and floor plans. 
   

2. Jeff Cauthen
   

3. 
   

4. By far the most numerous, these are just what they sound like, a passenger car with lots of seats. Coaches often saw many years of service and more than one rebuild during their lifetime, and many survive today not only in Amtrak service but as commuter coaches and tourist or excursion cars. Like head-end cars, these were typically owned by, and often built by the railroads that operated them.  Coach cars tend to have a fairly symmetrical row of windows running most of the length of the car on both sides, with smaller windows at the end where the restrooms were located. Nomenclature for Coach cars = C.
   

Coach vs Chair Car vs Commute

1. #2170 is a coach with standard seats that had leg rests. The seats were the kind that you push the back forward to sit facing the other way. (Walkover?) foot rest would follow it.
   

2. 
   

3. #2175 is a chair car. It has reclining seats with adjustable foot rests and fewer seats with more room. These seats replaced the original seats. They are like the seats in a streamliner. I do not know why SP put modern seats in a coach made in 1921. Subs have 96 seats and they all are the push forward type. Foot rest falls back. CSRM has both cars SP #2170 and #2175. 
   

4. 
   

5. All LW cars were chair cars. HW's were a mix. Double deck commute cars were coaches. Chair cars had better seats and less of them. Chair cars usually had larger lavatories. The Coach and Chair car book from SPH&TS details the differences
   

References

Pax Cars(*see T-20/13)

Pax Trains         (*see T-33/10-13)

SP Pullman Standard Plan 7377-78

1. Plan 7376 is a 48-seat coach delivered for general service, the Challenger and the Californian.
   

Paint

Interior Paint

1. The interior walls appear to be a light tan, with a slightly darker floor and multi-colored seats. This is from inspecting black and white builder's photos. The Daylight book covers interior paint schemes for similar cars ordered for the Daylights but does not cover these cars used in general service.
   

2. 
   

3. The Illinois Railway Museum have the Pullman files and should be able to sell you a copy of the original spec sheets.
   

HeavyWeight Sleeper / Coach

1. They are 6-axles Clerestory style cars.
   

Paint

1. Painted 'Lark' 2-Tone Grey
   

Modeling HeavyWeight Classics

Walthers

1. They are 6-axles Clerestory style .
   

2. 
   

3. Put SP number or names on some Walthers Heavyweight classics.
   

4. Here's the list of the suggested number with those model ;
   

5. 
   

6. - 932-10109, Pullman Coach,Paired Window, (Plan#2882-B) :SP 2350 to 2359
   

7. The coaches numbered 2350-2359 are not SP either.Not SP
   

Modeling Coach Cars

Athearn

1. Athearn does have a truck mounted generator, roller bearings, narrow width diaphragms, factory installed grab irons, ladders, etc.
   

2. Athearn does not have a baggage loading door, skirts
   

3. Paul Vernon
   

Paint

1. Two tone gray (TTG)
   

Lettering & Numbering

1. Lettered SOUTHERN PACIFIC
   

Electrical

1. The Athearn cars have the flicker free lighting system.
   

2. 
   

References

Coach Articles

1. Railroad Model Craftsman February 1938 - Plans, SP 54ft Coach of 1894.
   

2. Railroad Model Craftsman July 1954 - Plans, Plans, SP 54ft Coach of 1894.
   

3. Railroad Model Craftsman September 1954 - Plans, SP Coach 60ft steel.
   

4. Railroad Model Craftsman August 1988 - Plans, T&NO Common Std. Harriman Coach 60-C-5.
   

5. Railroad Model Craftsman May 1969 - Although not SP exactly, Plans for Bi-level Commute Coaches - C &NW ones were close to the  SP Gallery Cars.
   

 

Coach References

1. The Official Pullman-Standard Library, Vol. 5: Southern Pacific Prewar Cars
   

2. The Official Pullman-Standard Library, Vol. 6: Southern Pacific Postwar Cars
   

3. The Official Pullman-Standard library books published by RPC Publications do contain plans, in this case builder generated floor plans showing the placement of interior fittings, windows etc., all with dimensions. They also include simplified side elevation drawings. The two volumes published on Southern Pacific P-S passenger cars are *very* much worth finding and adding to your collection:
   

4. 
   

5. RPC Publications' website:                                          http://www.rpcbooks.com/
   

6. All three of the RPC volumes listed above are currently out-of-print.
   

7. RPC also publish the Passenger Car Library Series; volume five contains the Budd and ACF cars built for ATSF and SP.
   

Drawings

1. Contact the Pullman-Standard museum in Chicago, IL. They still have available for sale erection drawings (blueprints) for most of the P-S passenger cars. You'll need to get their catalog and order by the correct lot number(s) for the car(s) you're interested in.                                                                                                                               
   

2. Call for information: (773) 660-2341                       http://www.pullman-museum.org/thePeople/
   

3. Rob Sarberenyi
   

Specific Coach Passenger Cars

60-C Class Cars

60-C-1

    #1347-1348

    Blt by SP CO, 1906    1 Total Pac. Line

    These became “All Day Lunch Car” and were renumbered.

Reference

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 18-19

Drawing

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 18

Modeling 60-C-1 Coach Cars

Ken Kidder brass

1. The Ken Kidder cars are from the early days of brass; they have a too-shallow roof curve (which isn't noticeable when these cars are in a train by themselves), missing roof conduit and the wrong air vents, no interior detail, a wood floor, and no floor detail.
   

2. 
   

3. To improve the cars, get rid of the wood floors and fabricate my own underframes for these cars out of styrene. The floor is 0.020 inch sheet styrene. so that they fit between the floor support brackets on the Ken Kidder cars. Add enough detail to make these cars interesting. Add a battery box, brake cylinder, and brake valve, generator, brake rods and piping, one or two air tanks, and vapor regulators. The vapor regulators are part of PSC's underframe kit, and were used for venting steam lines. These are short pipes that stick down from the floor. Regardless of whether they're prototypical, they help make the underframe look busy.
   

4. Robert Bowdidge
   

60-C-2

    Blt by SP CO, 1909    1 Total Pac. Line

Reference

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 19

Drawing

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 18

Modeling 60-C-2 Coach Cars

Ken Kidder brass

60-C-3

1. #1085, 1099, 1141, 1142, 1149, 1177, 1180, 1191, 1228, 1232, 1236, 1238, 1240, 1253, 1259, 1260, 1273, 1275, 1361, 1367, #1619, 1670, 1685, 1686, 1691, 1825, 1843, 1844
   

1945

1. #1092, 1095, 1097, 1149, 1150, 1363, 1825, 1828, 1829, 1831, 1832, 1836
   

2. 
   

3.                                  no A/C
   

    Blt by Pullman, 1909-10    84 Total Pac. Line

Reference

Drawing

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 18

Modeling 60-C-3 Coach Cars

Ken Kidder brass

60-C-4

1. #1065, 1066, 1068-1071, 1076, 1078, 1079, 1108, 1119, 1128, 1136, 1144, 1146, 1159, 1163, 1171, 1175, 1326, 1338, 1340, #1343, 1349, 1372, 1379, 1394, 1413, 1426, 1527, 1569, 1573, 1576, 1578, 1827, 1833, 1840, 1841, 1846, 1848, 1849, 1851, #1854, 1862, 1864, 1867, 1868, 1871, 1873, 1874, 1876, 1877, 1878, 1949, 1952, 1954, 2301
   

2.                                   no A/C
   

3. 
   

4. #1169, 1170              no A/C, narrow windows, former T&NO 754, 756
   

5. 
   

6. #1181                        no A/C, former T&NO 738
   

7. #1182-1186               no A/C, former T&NO 735, 736, 739, 741, 747
   

8. #1572-1578               steel, Harriman cars, dbl vestibule, used on Daylight until 1924
   

9. #1858, 1859, 1861    no A/C, former T&NO 744, 746, 750, narrow window
   

1. #1349-1398    Pacific Line Cars
   

2. #1400-1426    Pacific Line Cars
   

    Blt by Pullman, 1909-11    135 Total Pac. Line

1945

1. #1108, 1119, 1127, 1128, 1131, 1145, 1171, 1379, 1385, 1394, 1413, 1519, 1561, 1569, 1571, 1835, 1847, 1851, 1853, 1857, 1868, 1877, 2300
   

Paint

1. Two tone gray (TTG)
   

Lettering & Numbering

1. It had "COMMUTE" in the letterboards near the doors.
   

Reference

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 27, 53-54

1. Photo of SP #1185 60-C-4 class coach                     Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg.128.
   

Drawing

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 18, 61-62

Modeling 60-C-4 Coach Cars

Ken Kidder brass

    60-C-4#1864         72 seat Harriman coach.

60-C-5

  #1196-1199

  #1956-1978

  #2302-2311

1. #1010-1012*, 1196*, 1200-1202, 1208, 1961, 1963, 1964, 1966, 1972, 1974, 2302-2305, 2307-2309
   

2.                                    no A/C, *former NWP 400, 454, 455, 458
   

3. #1203, 1958, 1968, 1265
   

   #1965         72 seat, 2 compartment Harriman coach. air conditioned in 1937

    Blt by Pullman, 1912-14    37 Total Pac. Line

1945

1. #1201-1205, 1963, 1965, 1974
   

Reference

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 30-33, 55

Drawing

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 30, 61-62

Plans, T&NO Common Std. Harriman Coach           Railroad Model Craftsman Aug. 1988 -    

60-C-6  Chair Cars 

1. #1007-1009        no A/C, former NWP 403-405
   

2. #1013-1015        no A/C, former NWP 462, 465, 468
   

3. #1874            a/c, small window, used on Coast Mail (Train 72)
   

4. 
   

5. #2026, 2032, 2037, 2045, 2049
   

6. #2033, 2041, 2046, 2160, 2161, 2163        no A/C, used on Coast Mail (Train 71)
   

    Blt by Pullman, 1915    30 Total Pac. Line

1945

1. #2026, 2029, 2046
   

Reference

    Harriman Chair Cars                                              PT1-159

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 36, 39-40

Drawing

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 37, 63

60-C-7

1. #2050, 2051, 2053, 2055, 2057, 2063, 2064, 2067, 2068        no A/C
   

    Blt by Pullman, 1915    20 Total Pac. Line

1945

1. #2050
   

Reference

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 36, 39

Drawing

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 37, 97

60-C-8

1. #2164
   

1. Coach GH&SA 823, Class 60-C-8, was built by Pullman in Lot 4395 (Pullman Plan 2924) in November 1916. It was rebuilt at Houston General Shops April 19, 1927 to T&NO 987, Beaumont; renamed Victoria April 19, 1927; sold to SP March 16, 1941;  renumbered to SP 110, May 16, 1941; sold to NWP August 10, 1941; renumbered and named NWP 06, Redwood September 1941; name removed December 1954;  it was retired to NWPMW 211, November 20, 1958. SP always referred too them as official or business cars.
   

2. Jeff Cauthen
   

    Blt by Pullman, 1916    0 Total Pac. Line

1945

1. #1208, 2164
   

Reference

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 37, 50-51

Drawing

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 37

60-C-9

1. #1801, 1803, 2167, 2169, 2172, 2176, 2185, 2186    no A/C, former SDAE 203, 205
   

2. #2165, 2166, 2170, 2174                                            A/C, narrow windows
   

   #2073                                                                          A former three-digit TNO car was a -9.

1. All had 12 roof vents.
   

    Blt by Pullman, 1921    0 Total Pac. Line

1945

1. #2165, 2166
   

Reference

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 46-47, 56

Drawing

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 46, 96

60-C-10

    These heavyweight coach cars were only five on the system

1. #2180                        A/C, former H&TC-847
   

2. #2181, 2182, 2183    no A/C, former H&TC 848, 849, 850
   

3. #2184                        A/C, former H&TC 851
   

4. #2712                        no A/C, former 60-CC-1
   

5. 
   

6. All had 12 roof vents.
   

    Blt by AC&F, 1924    0 Total Pac. Line

Reference

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 46-47, 57

Drawing

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 46, 95

Modeling 60-C-10

Precision Scale

1. Three Precision Scale HO models of S.P. heavyweight passenger cars: all had identification or car-number problems.
   

2. #2073   C-60-10. This looks like a -9 since it has 20 roof vents rather than a -10's 12.
   

3. #2168   C-60-10. This also looks like a -9 because of the vent number. Unfortunately, #2168 was a 72-C-1.
   

Clerestory Roof Coaches

70-C Class Cars

70-C-1 Harriman Chair Cars

1. #1048-1056     HW Coach Cars
   

2. 
   

3. These cars, acquired when SP purchased the EP&SW, were numbered into the SP system.
   

4. As clerestory cars they LOOKED different from most SP coaches.
   

5. Tony Thompson
   

1. Obvious differences are the air-conditioning duct and the lavatory windows, which are offset upwards on the SP cars. The ducts are smaller than what we're used to seeing on Pullman cars (e.g. New England Rail Service ducts). The clerestory's may be different widths, and that might account for the difference in the appearance of the air conditioning ducts.
   

   #1049  Coach car appears in a 1939 SUNSET LTD. consist in Wayners' book "Passenger Train Consist 1923-1971.

1. #1052-1054 were rebuilt into business cars in 1930. Only one 70-C-1 lasted to 1961.
   

   #1055 & #1056 had their window size altered such that the "seat" windows were shorter than those nearest the doors.

1. Out of a total of nineteen (coaches and chair cars) acquired from the EP&SW, no less than seven were ultimately converted into official cars by S.P., a valedictory after a fashion. The EP&SW cars gave long and good service.
   

Paint

1. 1. Green
   

2. 2. Two-tone gray. There is a photo SPHTS Volume 1 on page 223 of SP #1056 in two-tone gray.
   

3. 3. Daylight colors, silver roof during 1957.
   

Reference

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 197, 223

Drawing

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 201

Modeling 70-C-1 HW Coach

Walthers

1. The Walthers heavyweight coach, appears that the only SP car that would qualify to be represented, based only on window patterns and not dimensions would be SP #1048-1056. #1048 appears to match the Walthers car much better, if one adds the AC duct.
   

Paint

1. The Walthers car is being produced in TTG for SP but photos seem to suggest that these cars remained in green. Walthers also is producing a green version [probably Pullman Green] unlettered. The best course of action to use one of these cars for an SP car might be to letter the green car.
   

73-C  Chair Cars

73-C-1 Chair Cars

1. #2331-2347        A/C
   

   #2335           used on the Coast Mail{Train 72}

1. The 73-C-1 HW Coach class lasted in good numbers to 1961 and finally disappeared in 1966.
   

SP Harriman passenger car gas tanks

1. Gas tanks were used to power the gas lights installed under SP Harriman coaches and chair cars. They appear in photos to be approximately 16" or 20" in diameter, and about 6-8' long.
   

Paint

1. Green
   

2. Two tone gray.  There is a photo in SPHTS Vol.1 on page 223 of SP #1056 in two-tone gray.
   

3. Daylight -  silver roof during 1957.
   

Reference

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 206-209, 215, 226-229

   See:                                                      PT1-159

Drawing

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 207, 216, 218, 226, 231

Modeling 73-C-1 HW Coach

Coach Yard

1. Coach Yard did the 73-C-1 (misidentified as 73-CC-1)
   

2.                                      http://www.thecoachyard.com/Pages/AllImages.lasso?StockNo=0905
   

3.                             http://www.thecoachyard.com/Pages/AllImages.lasso?StockNo=0906
   

Arch Roof Coaches

Arch Roofed Cars Nomenclature

1. Arch roofed cars were Common Standard steel cars to the SP. SP referred to the roof style as an arch roof in most cases. Clerestory roofs were referred to as Clere-Story on the SP. Pullman called the arch roof an oval roof. From an engineering standpoint, oval is more correct. The design is most certainly not a Roman arch.
   

2. 
   

3. Calling an arch roof steel car is much more appropriate that calling it a Harriman. Common Standard arch roof steel car is even more correct. No arch roofed cars were ever referred to as "Harriman cars" by SP or UP or by the builders Pullman, ACF, etc. 
   

4. Jeff Cauthen
   

72-C  Class Cars

72-C-1 Harriman Chair Cars

1. #2070, 2072, 2073, 2074-2076, 2077-2084    A/C, former coach, news agent space, held 90 pax,
   

2. #2074-76                                                         rebuilt to 40 seat cafe lounge cars in ‘28 renumbered #10907-10909,
   

3. #2080-84                                                         converted to parlor cars in ‘31 and renumbered in ’41.
   

4. #2168                                                               looks like a C-60-9 because of the vent number. However, #2168 was a 72-C-1.
   

Reference

    72-C-1, 72' Harriman Chair Cars  Trainline #62; History, plans, pix, roster; by Don Munger

                                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 131-134

Drawing

                                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 133, 179, 186

72-C-2 Harriman Chair Cars

1. CP #2312-2315    A/C, former coach, news agent space, former CP
   

Reference

    72-C-2, 72' Harriman Chair Cars  Trainline #62; History, plans, pix, roster; by Don Munger

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 131

Drawing

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 133, 187

72-C-3 Harriman Chair Cars

1. TNO #862-871                                                        72' Harriman Chair Cars, former H&TC
   

Reference

    72-C-3,  Trainline #62; History, plans, pix, roster; by Don Munger

                                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 135

Drawing

                                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 133, 170, 189

72-C-4 Harriman Chair Cars

1. #2001, 2002, 2004-2006, 2008-2011            72' Harriman Chair Cars, A/C, former coach, news agent space, former O&C
   

Reference

    72-C-4,  Trainline #62; History, plans, pix, roster; by Don Munger

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 131

Drawing

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 133

72-C-5 Harriman Chair Cars

1. #10092-97                                                     72' Harriman Chair Cars, A/C, former coach
   

2. 
   

3. #2012-2015, 2017-2021, 2316, 2317, 2319-2324, 2326-2330 2326- 2326-2330
   

4. A/C, former coach, former T&NO #872-881 transferred to Pacific lines, 1931 becoming #2012-2021,
   

5. 
   

6. #2316-2320    steel, standard seats
   

7. #2321-2330    steel, bucket seats, higher windows, used on Daylight, former CP
   

Reference

    72-C-5,  Trainline #62, pg.10; History, plans, pix, roster; by Don Munger

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 131, 141-144, 188-190

Drawing

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 133, 143, 144, 179, 186

Modeling 72-C-5 Harriman Chair Cars

Coach Yard

    #1151 HO Brass Southern Pacific SP Harriman Coach Class 72-C-5.

75-C Chair Cars

75-C-1 Chair Cars

1. #2348        destroyed in accident 1939
   

2. #2349        A/C, former  75-O-1
   

Reference

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg.

Drawing

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg.

75-C-5 Chair Cars

    These were heavyweight cars.

77-C Chair Cars

77-C-2 Chair Cars

1. #2431-2433, 2437
   

2. 
   

3.     Lightweight Coach, 48 seat, used on Cascade train.
   

Paint

    Painted “Cascade”.

Modeling 77-C-2 Harriman Chair Cars

Coach Yard

79-C Chair Cars

1. 
   

2.