General Information

Lightweight Chair Coaches Car - prewar

1. All LW cars were chair cars. The PS-built SP pre-WWII lightweight coaches, articulated and not. Most had been rebuilt with unfluted stainless steel with the red letterboard, of course, but many still had fluted sides. Of the still-fluted cars, some were yellow.
   

2. 
   

Lightweight Coaches

1. Lightweight coaches did not have private rooms, as on the Daylight, etc. That's probably one reason for the popularity of the overnight train.
   

2. Tony Thompson
   

3. 
   

Lightweight Passenger Car Trains

1947-1960

1. The only trains equipped or re-equipped with lightweight cars were:
   

2. 
   

3. The Morning and Noon Daylights of the Coast Line painted in Daylight colors
   

4. The San Joaquin Daylight and the T&NO Sunbeam, also in Daylight colors
   

5. The Coast Line Lark painted in two tone gray
   

6. The two City of San Francisco trains, co-owned with the Union Pacific and the Chicago & Northwestern in streamliner colors. Assorted sleepers for use on the Golden State Route, with the Rock Island painted in two tone gray
   

7. 24 green chair cars for use on the Challenger running on the overland route
   

8. 
   

9. Wartime restrictions were over and the car builders' order books were full, but deliveries were extremely slow.
   

10. 
    

11. The Southern Pacific and the Rock Island agreed to run the new Golden State Limited with many new cars. The cars would be painted silver and Daylight red. The Rock Island received a number of cars in 1947 and 1948, but the Southern Pacific’s contributions did not arrive until 1949 and 1950.
    

12. Bruce Bloch
    

13. 
    

Lightweight Passenger Car Interiors

1. The standard interior color for seats or the interior in general for SP LWs it depended on the car and on the train. Plus rooms were painted different colors most times.
   

2. Jeff Cauthen
   

3. 
   

References

Lightweight Passenger Car References

1. The Official Pullman-Standard Library, Vol. 5: Southern Pacific Prewar Cars
   

2. The Official Pullman-Standard Library, Vol. 6: Southern Pacific Postwar Cars
   

3. The Official Pullman-Standard library books published by RPC Publications do contain plans, in this case builder generated floor plans showing the placement of interior fittings, windows etc., all with dimensions. They also include simplified side elevation drawings. The two volumes published on Southern Pacific P-S passenger cars are *very* much worth finding and adding to your collection:
   

4. 
   

5. RPC Publications' website:                                          http://www.rpcbooks.com/
   

6. All three of the RPC volumes listed above are currently out-of-print.
   

7. RPC also publish the Passenger Car Library Series; volume five contains the Budd and ACF cars built for ATSF and SP.
   

Lightweight Passenger Car Drawings

1. Contact the Pullman-Standard museum in Chicago, IL. They still have available for sale erection drawings (blueprints) for most of the P-S passenger cars. You'll need to get their catalog and order by the correct lot number(s) for the car(s) you're interested in.                                                                                                                               
   

2. Call for information: (773) 660-2341                       http://www.pullman-museum.org/thePeople/
   

3. Rob Sarberenyi
   

Modeling Lightweight Chair Coach Cars

Kidder

1. Kidder bodies are closer. The trouble with the Kidder cars is the roofs; the arch roof is way too shallow.
   

MDC / Roundhouse

1. This coach has one less window per side and is shorter than the Model Power car to use the baggage car and RPO underbody (making it less useful).
   

Model Power 67' Harriman Coach

1. The Model Power car is apparently a composite of several classes and not one particularly correct for any one class. It has characteristics of SP "Harriman" chair and coach cars. The prototypes had older style windows with sashes and arched tops. At a minimum, the car in question has one fewer window than required. A "good enough" representation and not bad looking if done up in the correct paint etc. In this same line, the baggage and RPO-baggage cars are moderately accurate. As a T&NO car, it needs an extra washroom window at one vestibule.
   

Specific Lightweight Coach Passenger Cars

77-C Class Cars

77' Chair Cars

1. The water make-up tank would have been gone by the time these cars were in Cascade or Redwood service.
   

2. Jeff Cauthen
   

1. 77-C-x  lightweight cars had the hand brake at the vestibule end.
   

2. 
   

3. The Lark never had any 77' chair cars lettered the Lark.
   

4. See the consist presented at Richard's sitehttp://espee. railfan.net/ lark.html
   

Paint

1. These came in Daylight colors.
   

Reference

1. Consult Randall & Anderson, Vol. 5, Pre-War SP cars.
   

77-C-1 Chair Cars

1. #2201 and 2202
   

2. #2400 and 2401
   

3. 
   

4. The two Class 77-C-1 cars transferred to the Sunbeam in June 1939 as T&NO 452 and 453.
   

5. 
   

6. The 77-C-1 and -2 class did not have the high window (it was a full window). 
   

7. The 77-C-1 and -2 classes were used on the Daylight and Sunbeam. 
   

Reference

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 278-284

Drawing

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 278

Modeling 77-C-1 Coach Cars

Athearn

1. The two new Athearn Daylight cars, 2400 and 2401 are lettered Southern Pacific Lines. So some slight filing to enlarge this window will get you a correct car. 
   

1. Athearn is doing the Daylight SP 2400 & 2401 in the SP Lines scheme. This is OK for about 2 years. They will also have full skirts, so all you'll need is Coach Yard full-width diaphragms to have a correct car.
   

2. Jeff Cauthen
   

Lettering & Numbering

1. If you are interested in changing to Southern Pacific, very careful use of Polly S Easy Lift Off and Q Tips will remove the lettering without harming the red panel. Once lettering is gone be sure and neutralize any remaining Easy Lift Off with soapy water then some plain water.
   

2. Jim Elliot
   

77-C-2 Chair Cars

1. #2427 and 2495     48 seat
   

1. The two Class 77-C-2 cars (T&NO 450 and 451).
   

2. Jeff Cauthen
   

3. 
   

4. The 77-C-1 and -2 class did not have the high window (it was a full window).
   

5. The 77-C-1 and -2 classes were used on the Daylight and Sunbeam and remained in Texas until May of 1956.
   

    #2427 was used on the Cascade in 1957.

Paint

    #2427 was painted in Two-Tone Gray.

Reference

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 279, 285-286

Drawing

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 279

Modeling 77-C-2 Chair Cars

77-C-3 Chair Cars

1. #2200
   

1. #2424 - 2438      44 seat chair
   

2. As delivered, Class 77-C-3 cars had steam-ejector A/C.
   

1. Class 77-C-3 cars on the SJ Daylight is a stretch, at least in Daylight paint, as there were only a couple of those cars that got Daylight Red and Orange.
   

2. The 77-C-3s were most likely not on a 1949 "Daylight".
   

3. Jeff Cauthen
   

Paint

1. In Daylight paint, as there were only a couple of those cars that got Daylight Red and Orange. 

2. 2.Class 77-C-3 cars on the SJ Daylight would have been Dark Olive painted cars (from the Challenger or Californian). 
   

3. 3.The original "Streamlined" Golden State was a TTG train and included 77-C-3 chair cars in TTG and a couple of articulated chair cars in TTG.  All had GOLDEN STATE on the letterboards.  Four single unit chair cars were painted in the Simulated Stainless Steel and Daylight Red scheme in 1947 -- they had GOLDEN STATE on the letterboards.  
   

4. 4.Remember, there is one high window in the women's dressing room on the 77-C-3 cars for an extra sink. Only a couple of 77-C-3 cars were ever painted Daylight. The 77-C-3s painted yellow for the COSF got new out-side swing-hanger trucks also. That shouldn't to much of a change to make.
   

    Jeff Cauthen

5. #2437 was painted Two-Tone Gray.

Lettering & Numbering

1. By 1949 the cars would likely no longer have had "LINES" lettering, and instead would have featured only "SOUTHERN PACIFIC" on the letterboards.
   

Reference

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 286, 292-301

1.                                                             Trainline  #102; Class 77-C-3
   

Drawing

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 287

Modeling 77-C-3 Chair Cars

Athearn

1. HO 77' Pullman Standard Chair Car, SP/GS #2427 [ATHG97106] Daylight color.
   

2. HO 77' Pullman Standard Chair Car, SP/GS #2429 [ATHG97104] Daylight color.
   

3. HO 77' Pullman Standard Chair Car, SP/GS #2431 [ATHG97105] Daylight color.
   

4. 
   

5. It looks really good.
   

6. Jeff Cauthen
   

7. 
   

8. In looking at the SPH&TS Book, Volume 1, the 77-C-3 Cars numbered 2427 and 2429 stayed in the Daylight colors and were eventually shipped to the T&NO returning to the SP in the middle fifties. The center skirting was removed in the 50s. They returned to the SP and picked up the following numbers: the 2427 became the 2200 and the 2429 picked up it's old number. If you remove the center skirting from the General Service paint then the Athearn car is close to correct. If not they should be painted "Daylight."
   

9. 
   

10. Athearn is offering also #2429 in Lark colors:   
    

11.                                                                 http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=&CatID=THRP&RN=SP
    

12.                                                                 http://www.athearn.com/Products/ Default.aspx? ProdID=ATHG97101
    

13. #2429 is lettered with Cascade insignia. The Lark never had any 77' chair cars lettered for the Lark.
    

1. The 2430 saw TTG paint (Cascade), Red and Silver for the Golden State (with names) and also Dark Olive (Challenger). It also had the center skirts removed but the book does show a picture of it in TTG, full-Width Diaphrams and center skirts. The 2431 and the 2433 saw basically all the paint schemes and also had the skirts removed in the 50s. They finished their career in the Dark Olive.
   

Details

1. The model has steam ejectors and the stuff that goes with it.
   

2. 
   

3. The Athearn 77-C-3 should have antenna posts along the roof, although it didn't receive the horizontal antenna rod.
   

4. John Thompson
   

Paint

1. Athearn stated that the first two paint schemes for the SP 77-C-3 chair car, the stainless steel with red letterboard and TTG Cascade. Unfortunately, the red letterboard is a bit too wide and the car has a dark gray underbody instead of the correct aluminum painted underbody. 
   

2. Jeff Cauthen
   

3. 
   

   Athearn cars are coming in the General Service paint scheme and the TTG. The Athearn 77-C-3 in two-tone gray is correct for the    

   Cascade which was the color it stated with and was retired in.

1. Athearn is showing their 77-C-3 coach for Daylight with "Lines" lettering,
   

2. also the COSF scheme;
   

3. and a version with lettering for T&NO's "Sunbeam"
   

4.                                                                              http://www.athearn.com/newsletter/022310/03_Gen_77_chair_022310.pdf
   

1. The underbody should be S/B aluminum as should the trucks. Some cars were painted Simulated Stainless Steel and other were striped to bare metal. In any case, time-frame of this paint scheme was relatively short.
   

Lettering & Numbering

1. The car numbers are OK, but the red stripe should probably be Daylight Red edged in black.
   

2. Athearn is showing their 77-C-3 coach for Daylight with "Lines" lettering.
   

   Remember, you simply can’t include a version w/o "Lines" lettering because the spacing and location on the letterboard is different.

1. Athearn car has the black edging on the red letterboard.  Also, the black edging Athearn used appears too narrow. Black edging was discontinued by the time the gray underbody became standard.
   

2. Jeff Cauthen
   

Reference

1. Trainline  #102; Class 77-C-3, by Athearn, extensive review
   

1. Go to Atheran's web-site for some views of the new 77-C-3 chair car.
   

2.                                                                      http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=&CatID=THRP&RN=SP
   

3. It looks really good.
   

4. Jeff Cauthen
   

Union Station

1. For #2437 44 seat chair, use Union Station #7422.
   

79-C Class Chair Cars

79-C-1__.

1. SP #2439 - 2440 
   

2. 
   

3. Class 79-C-1 had seats 44, radio, baggage elevator doors on side (*see PT2) steam-ejector A/C, it retained fluted sides.
   

1. They did survive into the Amtrak era.  #2439 became Amtrak #7515  on 11/1972. 
   

Reference

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 302-306

Drawing

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 302

Modeling 79-C-1 Chair Cars_

American Model Builders_

1. American Model Builders kit number #1101. This kit is for the Southern Pacific 79-C-1 44 Seat Coach have corrugated sides.
   

MTH Daylight Coaches

1. SP 2440 is Class 79-C-1. The MTH model has the baggage loading door, friction bearing journals, full width diaphragms on each end, detailed underbody including steam lines, factory installed grab irons, ladders, etc., skirts.
   

2. Paul Vernon
   

Paint

1. Daylight
   

Lettering & Numbering

1. Lettered SOUTHERN PACIFIC
   

Electrical

1. The MTH cars are supposed to have the same flicker free lighting system the Athearn cars have.
   

79-C-2  Chair Cars

    SP #2485 - 2493 

1. Class 79-C-2 had Waukesha A/C and electrical equipment, , 44 seats, radio and antennae. The 1941 cars had baggage elevators and the MHP cars are most likely these. 
   

2. Jeff Cauthen
   

1. There are several references in various sources to 44 seat chair cars included in mid to late 50's consists. They were distinctive in that they had 36" tall windows.
   

1. Add the 44 seat chair car to your Shasta Daylight. The SJ Daylight began operations July 4, 1941 and had new and older articulated chair cars and four new Class 79-C-2 chair cars (SP 2487, 2488, 2492, and 2493).
   

2. #2491 (a 36 seat chair) was used on the Cascade in 1971.
   

Paint

1. Daylight
   

2. #2490 was painted Simulated Stainless Steel
   

Reference

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 307-314, 316-319

1.                                                             Southern Pacific Passenger Train Consists and Cars 1955-1958 - by Harry Stegmaier
   

2.                                                             SP Trainline articles on Shasta Daylight and Cascade
   

Drawing

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 302, 312

Modeling 79-C-2 Chair Cars

Broadway Limited

1. These cars included class 79-C-2 as forthcoming from Broadway Limited in HO scale (the 1953 "un-skirted version). They will be releasing such a car with baggage elevator doors and without rooftop antennas, numbered #2485 and #2486. This body would also be correct for #2487 and #2489, originally lettered for the "San Joaquin." With the addition of a rooftop antenna they should correctly model #2491 and #2492.
   

Union Station

1. For #2491 36 seat chair, use Union Station #7422.
   

2. 
   

Specific Post War Lightweight Passenger Cars

83-C Class Chair Cars

83-C-1 Chair Car

1. #2381, 2390                                                              46-seat Chair car (News Agent)
   

2. #2385, 2394                                                              38-seat Chair car (Crew's Room)
   

3. #2382, 2383, 2387, 2391, 2392, 2396                      48-seat Chair car
   

4. #2384, 2386, 2388, 2389, 2393, 2395, 2397, 2398  48-seat Chair car
   

Paint

1. #2382 was painted in Shasta Daylight colors.
   

2. #2395 was painted in Shasta Daylight colors.
   

Reference

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 365-375, 379-384

Drawing

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 366, 370, 371, 373, 383

Modeling 83-C-1 Chair Car (News Agent)

Union Station

1. Use Union Station #7569 for cars #2381, 2390.
   

2. Use Union Station #7571 for cars #2382, 2383, 2387, 2391, 2392, 2396
   

3. Use Union Station #7571a for cars #2384, 2386, 2388, 2389, 2393, 2395, 2397, 2398
   

83-C-2 Chair Car

1. #9300, 9301, 9302
   

2. 
   

   44 Seats Chair Car  LW Pax Car

1. These are numbers for the 22 roomette sleeper, built by Pullman-Standard in 1950 (lot 6872, plan 4122B) for the Cascade (?)), 9305 and 9306 (for the 1951 Lark 22 roomette sleepers).
   

2. 
   

3. It is a Canadian Car & Foundry Coach. They had a few on the Lark, and the Cosf. They also have a Pullman E-Series Duplex Sleeper (SP never had Duplex sleepers).
   

4. 
   

5. #2379, 2380, 2399-2401
   

Paint

1. #2380 was painted Simulated Stainless Steel.
   

Reference

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 387-390

Drawing

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 388

Modeling 83-C-2

Rapido Trains

1. They are the Class 83-C-2 44 seats chair car (all 5 numbers). The kit seems to be very nice. The few on the Lark, and the Cosf were not the kind that are featured on the rapido HO Pass cars. The windows at the ends do not really match.
   

2. Part of the Super Continental Line                    http://www.rapidotrains.com
   

Union Station

1. For #2380, use Union Station #7422.
   

83-C-3

1. SP 2359           83-C-3 "Jim Crow" 32 seat coach-bar-lounge, T&NO 432, SP 2220, VIA 4117
   

2. SP 2362           83-C-3 "Jim Crow" coach, 32 seat coach-bar-lounge, T&NO 435, SP 2223, VIA 4116
   

3. SP 2364           83-C-3 44 seat coach, T&NO 437, SP 2225, VIA 4105
   

4. SP 2366           83-C-3 44 seat coach, T&NO 439, SP 2227, VIA 4106
   

5. SP 2369           83-C-3 44 seat coach, T&NO 442, SP 2230, VIA 4107
   

   SP 2377           83-C-3, originally named  "Golden Ore". There is a 1960 photo of this car, after it got the post-1958 scheme, on    

                                page 401,of  SPH&TS Vol. 1

Reference

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 390-401

Drawing

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 392, 393

83-C-4

1. #2362 - 2376     44 seat chair
   

Paint

1. #2374 was painted Simulated Stainless Steel.
   

Reference

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 394, 397-401

Drawing

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 393

Modeling 83-C-4

Union Station

1. For #2374, use Union Station ##7571a.
   

83-C-5

1. #2352-2357        48-seat Chair car
   

2. 
   

3. steel, smooth sides, seats 48, baggage elevator, electro-mechanical air conditioning, battery boxes on both sides
   

Reference

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 376-378, 385-386

    Look at SPH&TS Passenger Car Vol., pg. 117 book (ex T&NO #771 and #772 (60-C-5) to Postal Coach in early 1948).

Drawing

                                                               Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 376

Modeling 83-C-5

PSC

1. They made a 60 foot Harriman coach/RPO which it called a 60-CP-15-1. There isn’t any reference to such a car in either the Pass. Car Vol. I or the SPH&TS Common Standard diagrams of 3/1/33. Looking at the PSC car, it appears to be a 60-C-5 through 60-C-10 that has had it upper windows blanked at the same time one end was converted to an RPO.
   

2. 
   

Lightweight Chair - Baggage Cars

Paint

1. The 1937 Daylight chair-baggage car had interior colors specified per P-S builder's specs.
   

77-CB  Chair - Baggage Cars

77-CB-1

1. #3300 - 3301
   

    steel, seats 44, news agent stand

Details

Radio and Antennae

Diaphragm

1. Both the 77 foot Chair Baggage's came with a diaphragm on the baggage end but without the full-width extensions.
   

Reference

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 266

Drawing

                                                                                    Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 266

79-CB  Chair - Baggage Cars

79-CB-1  Chair Baggage (Coast Daylight)  Lightweight

1. #3302 - 3303
   

    steel, seats 44, news agent stand, corrugated passengers cars.

1. Baggage-chair #3302 is shown in the SP coach book as being retired 1971 with no further dispositions noted. Stegmaier shows this car as going to the Stockton, Terminal and Eastern. 
   

Details

Radio and Antennae

Diaphragm

1. The prototype cars did indeed have a narrow diaphragm at the baggage end. The 79 foot Chair Baggage's came with a diaphragm on the baggage end but it was without the full-width extensions. The orange band of paint went across it. The front didn't have the full width diaphragm and the daylight orange stripes came completely around the car end.
   

Paint

1. Daylight cars had the car type printed in silver at one end like "Chair", "Parlor"..etc. Did the Chair Baggage say "Chair" "Baggage" or "Chair Baggage".
   

Daylight

1. The daylight orange stripes came completely around the car end.
   

2. The orange band of paint went across a narrow diaphragm at the baggage end.
   

Lettering & Numbering

1. Some roads put "Baggage" at the baggage end, and "Chair" at the chair end. This is how the SP handled it.
   

2.                                                                              Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 276
   

Reference

1.                                                                              Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 266, 270-277
   

2. Prewar Single Unit Cars Roster ‘37-’77,               (*see PT2-34)
   

    Lt. Wt. Chair Car Roster                                     (*see PT2-78)

Drawing

                                                                                 Southern Pacific Passenger Cars, Vol 1: Coaches & Chair Cars, pg. 266, 270

Modeling 79-CB-1

1. Use corrugated passengers cars.
   

SP 3302 Combine  Chair - Baggage

1. The model will be in HO scale and will be non fluted sides in the GS silver with red stripe scheme.
   

2. Cyrus Gillespie
   

Athearn

1. Cars are not only to short (72') but they are almost Santa Fe prototype.
   

E&B Valley / Eastern Car Works

1. They need detail parts, new trucks, and such, but they will be a good starting point. Will have to shorten them get rid of the corrugations and add thin material to represent stainless steel "wavy" sides, and perhaps redo the position of the baggage door. It will have the "the look," and fit in with other passenger cars for a 1965/66 era "Coast Daylight, Lark, and Sad Sam" trains.
   

IHC /Rivarossi 

1. Nobody knows what these cars are. Too long (85') for Daylight prototype.
   

MTH

1. Other options would include a kit bash and partial scratch build modification of the MTH Chair Baggage. The most time consuming part would be building the replacement sides, then detailing it similarly to the Soho car. The biggest problem for this is that the car only comes in a set of eight cars.
   

Soho

1. Secondly, Soho produced a run of smooth side Chair Baggage cars in their old "silver box" line. These cars had the detail of the fluted models and did not compensate for the upgrade the prototype received. For example, the Soho model would need to be de-skirted, the doors removed and replaced with the modernized window, the trucks replaced with D&G P21R roller bearings, and the underbody detail upgraded. For finishing touches, you could apply a pair of Hi-Tech 9400 diaphragms and install an interior.
   

Union Terminal Imports.

1. For about $500 you can have an exact smooth side replica of the 3302 from Union Terminal Imports. This car has a lit interior, correct underbody detail, and accurate paneling, but could easily cause pain to a modeling budget.
   

2. 
   

3. Unfortunately, Union Station, Laser Horizons, or Brass Car Sides have never made smooth sides for the 79-CB-1. If they had, you could simply use a Train Station Products core kit and modify it.
   

4. Scott Inman
   

Lettering & Numbering

Decals

Microscale

    Use Microscale sheet #1055. #1055 says its for either the Coast Daylight or the Shasta Daylight