Southern Pacific Lines

Coast Line Division 

“The Route of the Octopus”

 
 

Steam Engine Types


4- 8- 0  Twelve Wheelers

4-8-0  TW-1

  1. MV's book shows 2911 and 2913 as TW-1's.

  2. Glenn Joesten

Modeling 4-8-0  TW-1



4-8-0  TW-6

  1. #2957


  1. The only SP TW-6 to remain on the SP roster into the late steam era is #2957.

Modeling 4-8-0  TW-6




4-8-0  TW-8

  1. #2914-2916

  2. #2919-2923


  3. Photos show TW engines with smokebox-centered headlights but with rectangular tenders. Or a whaleback tender and smokebox-top headlight.

  4. #2914-2916  TW-8 were all simpled from cross compound about the last of 1916. All four were converted to s/h after WWI.

  5. Paul Martineau


  6. #2921 TW-8 had a smokebox-top headlight.

  7. #2922 was the only TW-8 to not receive superheating and piston valves. It was unique in its class.

  8. #2922 was the only TW-8 that had slide valves after being simpled and also never had s/h applied. The conversions started in 1911 and the last was converted in 1918.

  9. Charlie Morrill


Tenders

  1. TW-8s utilized a variety of tenders, from shorty 90-C-2 Vanderbuilts, to ex-EP&SW semi-cylindrical tenders converted to oil and clear vision, along with several other kinds.


  2. There's a Stan Kistler photo on page 19 of SP #2912 with a 98-SC whaleback tender at Portland, OR in March 1948.


  3. #2919 TW-8 with a short Vandy tender.

  4. #2921 TW-8 with a whaleback tender and smokebox-top headlight.

References

  1. Saw the Winter 2005-6 edition of Locomotive Quarterly had a section devoted  to SP's ten-wheelers with a number of nice photos.

    See Rick Hamman's book California Central Coast Railways page 234 on the railroads of the Central Coast.


    There is an article by Bill Gruner on Espee TW-8 class 4-8-0s in S*P Trainline issue #33. Features numerous photos of TW-8s

                                                                               http://www.sphtsstore.org/servlet/the-127/Trainline-Issue-033/Detail

  1. There is a TW-8 on display at Bakersfield, California (#2914) at the Pioneer Village portion of the Kern County Museum.


Modeling 4-8-0  TW-8

Mantua

  1. Kitbashing an SP TW-8 using the Mantua 4-8-0 chassis, and the Harriman style boiler, cab and Vanderbilt tender from MDC.

Max Gray

    The Max Gray model in the sixties had a clear-vision rectangular tender as #2914.

Sunset

    Sunset did one with a Vanderbilt tender.

Westside

  1. West Side Models (built by KTM) rendition of a TW-8 has the headlight centered on the smokebox front--SP standard but atypical of the TW-8's. the Westside TW-8 is a composite of the more attractive/interesting features of the class.

  2. Charlie Morrill


Westside Tender

  1. It came with the short Vandy tender.

    Charlie Morrill


    It has a whaleback tender.



4-8-2 Mountains

Mt-class

  1. Espees Mts were about mid-sized for mountains. They had slightly less tractive force (main cylinders) than the USRA heavy mountain. The SP Mt's were larger, faster and had slightly more power than the USRA Heavy Mountains. Espee's Mt class were rather husky and good-sized locomotives. That most of them were built by superb craftsmen of Espee's Sacramento Shops makes them all the better! 


  1. There were plenty of the visually appealing Espee Mt-1, -3, -4, and -5 classes found in the San Francisco Bay Area. The Mt-3s, -4s, -5s were constructed in the Sacramento Shops, were very good steamers and well liked by their enginemen and fireman, as were the Mt-1s built by Alco. 

  2. Tony Thompson


  3. The Daylight Mts were usually used as helpers and as such did not normally operate west of Bakersfield. Of course there may have been exceptions, and the Daylight Mt engines were occasionally used as road engines in rare cases. This subject is addressed in Church's book on the SP Mountains, which in fact were originally DESIGNED for long runs. They not only replaced heavy Pacifics running between Ogden and Sparks (535 miles) but performed as intended on the Sunset route, running between Los Angeles and El Paso (815 miles, one of the longest steam runs by anyone at the time). There should certainly be no suggestion that the Mts were "not designed for or assigned to" such long runs.

  4. Tony Thompson


Details

Mt's Drivers

  1. MT's were equipped with 73" drivers. Per Robert Church's book on the 4300s, "... But spoked main drivers were only replaced [with disc wheel centers] if flawed, so many locomotives retained all spoked drivers until they were scrapped." While a disc wheel center on the second driver might be desired by the modeler, it wouldn't be necessary to have disc wheels to model a 4300 in the twilight of its years.

  2. Mark Pierce

Mt's Skyline Casing / Shrouding

  1. Prior to 1941 the first Mt-2 received its skyline casing. Prior to January 31, 1950  an unstreamlined Mt-2 #4390, the last engine of this class to receive a skyline casing. Some MTs made it into the 1950s without streamlining. The last one was done in 1950.


  2. Here are the late applications of skyline casings to 4-8-2s, taken from pages 232-235 of the SP Steam Locomotive Compendium (available from the publisher):


  3. Engine #Applied  LocationEngine #Applied     Location

  4. 4359 8-25-48 El Paso4332 7-29-49 Sac

  5. 4376     8-30-48 El Paso4370 8-26-49 LA

  6. 4349          11-19-48 El Paso 4372 8-30-49 Sac

  7. 4326    2-7-49 LA          4390 1-31-50 Sac

  8. 4371    2-7-49 Ogden 4310 5-19-50 Sac

  9. 4330    3-7-49 Ogden 4368 6-16-50 Bayshore

  10. 4364    4-7-49 Sac

  11.  

  12. The above are release dates, i.e., completion of work. Keep in mind that these locomotives were probably laid up awaiting shop space for quite some time before being released for service, so be really careful about saying that any ran "in the 1950s" without the casing.

  13. Joe Strapac


  14. Even when deskirted these engines kept the skyline casing, which is much more typically SP than the plating below the running board, and does much more for the looks. Many more engines had casings than Daylight paint, and for much longer.


Teardrop engine marker lamps

  1. Teardrop engine marker lamps were on MT-4’s. They were also used on Daylight engines.

  2. Ed

Modeling Teardrop engine marker lamps

  1. A BS casting makes the SP style of teardrop class lights for the GS and MT class of locomotives. Get it from the Original Whistle Stop in Pasadena CA. You will need to speak to Fred to get them.

  2. Paul C. Koehler


Mt #4310

  1. The coal to oil article in the latest issue of Trainline about the picture of #4310 on the title page (15). The caption says the photo was taken "about 1951." Date almost certainly wrong. The "Compendium" says #4310 got its skyline casing on 5-15-50, and most locomotives had the new, larger tender lettering by the end of 1948. It’s interesting that at this late date there is an engine that still retains the small lettering on the tender as well as not having boiler top shrouds. #4310 was the last Mt-1, -2, -3 or -4 to get the skyline casing, and in fact only Mt-5 #4368 got a casing later than #4310.

  2. Tony Thompson  


Paint

  1.                                                                            SP Painting & Lettering Guide, pg. 26, 27

Lettering & Numbering

  1.                                                                            SP Painting & Lettering Guide, pg. 26, 27

References

  1. The softcover book "Southern Pacific in the Bay Area: The San Francisco-Sacramento-Stockton Triangle", Authored by George Drury and published by Kalmbach Publishing in 1996 (ISBN #0-89024-274-7), this well done photo book includes pages and pages of images taken in the 1950s that will help you identify steam power you can model. 


  2. Another excellent book is "Southern Pacific Bay Area Steam" by Harre Demoro, Chatham Publishing, 1979, ISBN # 0-89685-037-4. This book is long out-of-print. Paul Gibson at Railpub currently has it among the fine collection of Espee books he shows available. Visit his website and print out the latest catalog, skip to the book section for lots of great Espee books: 

  3. Go to:                           http://www.railpub.com/. 


  4. You'll also find plenty of great images and information in the Coast Line and Western Division books John Signor authored (and the Coast Line Pictorial book co-authored with Tony Thompson)

  5.     Go to:                                                             http://www.signaturepress.com/ . 

  6. Don't forget Bob Church's book specifically on the Mt-class 4-8-2s.

  7.                         (*see MM 11/99, pg. 20)

  8.                         (*see MM 12/99, pg. 37)

  9. If you really want to try your hand at creating an SP 4-8-2, start by getting Monte Vista Publishing's book on SP MT class engines. It's volume 28.


  1.                                                                            SP Painting & Lettering Guide, pg. 26, 27



4-8-2  Mt-1

  1. SP #4300 - 4309    blt. by Alco Schenectady.


  2. According to their diagram book these were the following classes ca 1951:

  3. Skyline casing no casing:   Mt-1  Mt-1a


  1. The Mt-1 classes had one air pump on the left side.

  2. The Mt-1s were built with a standard SP square side cab. All of the Mt-1 cabs were cut away to match the Mt-3 cabs when the skyline casings were applied. Photos show four Mt-1s with "sport" cabs in the late 1930s, sometime before they got the skyline casings.

  3. Another spotting feature of individual engines is the type FWH installed. The flat bottom 4B was applied to MT-1s.


Paint

  1. It came in an all black scheme.


  1. The boiler also was painted green, front of boiler silver and cab roof red - cab. While not all MT-1s were painted in this scheme, it is legitimate. This is an earlier passenger paint that a lot of SP locomotives carried until the mid-1930's (and some station switchers still carried it until the 1950's... see the back cover shot on the dust jacket of A CENTURY OF SP STEAM). In fact, while the #2472 was undergoing it's first restoration, a patch of it's earlier green paint was found on the boiler jacket behind the air pump, confirming that the 2472 was at one time painted in this scheme.

  2. Bill Daniels


  1. At least the first few Mt-1s had America Iron boiler jackets, differing from the blue-green hue, in some contemporary black-and-white photographs.

  2. Bob Pecotich

Tender

  1. Mt-1s with a 120-C 4 wheel truck tender as that was what was assigned to the Shasta Division. Around 1924, 4 wheel tenders were swapped for 120-C's with 6 wheel trucks. It seems that one of the long time Shasta Mt-1s had a 160-C tender when it got it's skyline casing, got a 120-C tender when sent to the Shasta and after it left got a 160-C tender again.

  2. Ken Clark


Tenders in 1948

  1. #4300    120-C-6

  2. #4301    120-C-3

  3. #4319    120-C-3

  4. #4321    120-C-3

  5. #4324    120-C-6

  6. #4327    160-C-


Reference

  1. Church's book "The 4300 4-8-2's Southern Pacific Mt-Class Locomotives".  Specifically see pages 78 & 79. 

  2. Jeff Cauthen

  3.                                                                            http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/54322

Modeling 4-8-2  Mt-1

Key - Samhongsa

  1. #4321

  2. There was an MT-1 offered by (HO) - Key - Samhongsa. That is the as-delivered scheme from Alco.

Paint

  1. The boiler was painted green, front of boiler silver and cab roof red - cab. While not all MT-1s were painted in this scheme, it is legitimate.

  2. Bill Daniels


4-8-2  Mt-2

  1. According to their diagram book these were the following classes ca 1951:

  2. Skyline casing no casing:   Mt-2 Mt-2a

  3. The MT-2s (former EP&SW engines) came from ALCo Brooks. The MT-2 class were ordered by EP&SW but never ran for that road; they were delivered to SP.

  4. Gene Poon


  1. Prior to 1941 the first Mt-2 received its skyline casing. 


  1. In the very early 50's the entire Mt-2 class went to the Sacramento Div. in 1948, according to Church's book, and worked the rest of their lives there. Of course, one may occasionally have ventured into the Bay Area, but as that was Western Division territory all the way from Sacramento, it must have been unusual. The last Mt-2 left the roster in March, 1953.

  2. Tony Thompson 


  1. The newer classes all were built with "sport" cabs. Another spotting feature of individual engines is the type FWH installed. The other classes had the stepped bottom 4BL or 4-1/4BL heaters installed new. When shopped these were repaired and stocked so that by the late 1940s it was "mix & match" so you need a photo to tell what's correct.


  1. It's doubtful Mt-2s (ex-EP&SW locos) operated much in the Bay Area.

Paint

Mt-2 Silver Smokebox Front

  1. SP's MT-2 class Mountains had their Smokebox front initially painted silver. Records indicate that three MT-2's were modified with skyline casing in a 1942 to early 1943 time frame. It seems other SP Mountain Classes received the silver smokebox front around the time of this shopping but depends on the division of assignment ( i.e. - Locomotives on the Salt Lake Division received the silver smoke box fronts prior to the 1940's.) As a standard across the company, with the exception of Salt Lake, the silver smoke box fronts arrived with the 1946(ish) relettering, not by class. This does not include the GS2, 3, & 5 series, since they were a fairly special animal. This is just a very broad overview.

Tender

120-C-1 Tender

  1. According to the tender section in Bob Church's 4-8-2 book, the 120-C-1s were  rebuilt with new frames and six wheel trucks into the 120-C-6 class. So the tender is close (with new trucks) and after a big enough quake Fresno could be on the Coast line.

Tender Mt-2 #4388

  1. Mt-2 #4388's tender was wrecked in 1934, it was replaced with a 120-C-series Vanderbilt tender.

  2. According to tender record cards of Arnold Menke, the tender was a 120-C-8, #8759, from 6-1934 to 12-1946, and 3-1947 to 5-1951. That tender came with 5029 when new. #4388 had a 160-C from 12-46 to 3-47. The engine was retired in 1951.

Modeling 4-8-2  Mt-2

  1. Choosing a modeling date prior to January 31, 1950 could solve the problem with an unstreamlined Mt-2 #4390, the last engine of this class to receive a skyline casing. That way, the model can be numbered 4390 and operated unstreamlined.

  2. Tony Thompson

Model the cowling / streamlining (sheet metal covering domes), on the top of a Mountain 4-8-4

   There are no such details on the market, unfortunately!


  1. One way would be to mold it with plastic sheet and fill in or blend it with putty. There are many good photos published showing the top of the locomotive, whether a Mountain 4-8-2 or a GS-class 4-8-4, so you would have the idea of the shape you need. If it is a 4-8-4, the old Lionel or Bachmann models in HO have the streamlining and both shells and complete engines can be found pretty cheap on swap meets or eBay. You might be able to cut it off and modify it to fit onto a Mountain.

  2. Tony Thompson 

Alco Models

  1. Another Brass SP engine of note would be the Alco Models Mt-2, both versions. They have a Sagami 2032, and otherwise fine craftsmanship, they were equipped with the worst gearbox found in an import. Retrofit the same KTM gearbox that are used in the KTM SP 4-8-2s and the result will be a model that will run better, draw less current, than KTM engines. A word of caution with the Alco Mt-2s, do not run them upside down, the valve gear will self destruct when running upside down!


  1. They had a really bad gearbox and should be replaced with a KTM 37:1 idler gearbox. After the gearbox replacement and installation of a universal drive between the motor and gearbox, that Mt-2 was the best running HO model of a large SP engine. Finding those KTM gearboxes has gotten difficult, but a NWSL ball bearing idler gearbox might give even better results.

  2. Ken Clark


Bowser Mountain 4-8-2

  1. The Bowser Mountain came out years ago, though that model is not a very close replica of an SP engine.

Bachman Spectrum 4-8-2

Modification of a Spectrum USRA light 4-8-2

  1. Get a rough idea how much of an SP look the engine could take on. The results are in Photos, but here's a link:

  2.     Go to:                       http://tinyurl.com/cy8w5


  3. None of the details are actually permanently affixed to the locomotive. From the looks of it, adding a Worthington FWH to the fireman's side, redoing the injector piping to reflect SP practice, adding blowdown spreaders and possibly substituting a Spectrum 160C-x tender would help. The marker lights would get relocated.

Alco Models Mt-2

  1. Replace the gearbox with a Northwest Short Line 0.4 mod gearbox (so the engine would have the heft for stretches of 2.4% grade ), add lots of lead, re-solder a bunch of cold-soldered joints, rebuilt one of the tender trucks to stop the tender from leaning, put a 0.010" wire pivot on the trailing truck where it connects to the frame (to stop derailments caused by variations in track cross-level), and add details, especially to eliminate the empty look under its high-mounted cab. Check the stock blow-down valves for your era. The piston rods weren't level and  resolve a nasty conflict between the crosshead guide support and part of the feedwater system to get them leveled. Dr. Church's book The 4300's was really helpful. 

Alco Gear Failure

  1. Don't be surprised if you have gear failure in the gear box of the Alco built models in this series. These models had bad zamac in the gear towers. The plastic gears have a high rate of fracturing. There was another SP model built at about the same time that also had the same gear  problems. With both versions the only real flaw is the gearbox. Replace the gearbox with a KTM 37:1 idler gearbox (used on WSM GS-4s) or NWSL idler gearbox. The model already has a Sagami 2032 motor (but add a flywheel). When done the engine ran better (smooth and with 20% lower current draw) than any of my KTM 4-8-2s that had the same  motor and flywheel. When installing the same gearbox and motor combination in a Key SP 4-8-2s, they never ran as well and pulled substantially less than the KTM engines or the Mt-2. Alco would have had an excellent model if it weren't for that gearbox. You can screw the valve gear up on this model by running it upside down (It drops out of place and jams the mechanism). 

Sunset

  1. The Sunset HO SP 4-8-2's were light, but you can beef one up to 20 oz. and tune the drive train and it will pull well. It would do even better if it had a quality motor and gearbox.


4-8-2  Mt-3

  1. According to their diagram book these were the following classes ca 1951:

  2. Skyline casing no casing:    Mt-3   Mt-3a

  3. There are some minor differences between the Mt-3 and Mt-4.


  4. The Mt-3 classes had one air pump on the left side.

  5. The Mt-3  has no casing, no front end throttle and no external dry pipe.

  6. Ernie Fisch


  1. The newer classes all were built with "sport" cabs.Another spotting feature of individual engines is the type FWH installed. The other classes had the stepped bottom 4BL or 4-1/4BL heaters installed new. When shopped these were repaired and stocked so that by the late 1940s it was "mix & match" so you need a photo to tell what's correct.


  1. Used on Main Trains (Troop Trains)


  1. #4328 built Sacramento Shops 9-1925, Scrapped 2-27-1953

  2. Skyline casing added 6-29-1948 at El Paso


  3. Service

  4. 1948 probably New Mexico since it got to El Paso

  5. 1949 Sacramento Division

  6. 1950 Los Angeles Division

  7. 1951 Los Angeles Division

  8. 1952 San Joaquin Division

MT-3  Tenders in 1948

  1. #4328    120-C-3

  2. #4331    120-C-6

  3. #4334    160-C-

  4. #4336    160-C-

  5. #4337    160-C-

  6. #4338    160-C-

  7. #4339    160-C-

  8. #4340    160-C-

  9. #4341    160-C-

  10. #4343    120-C-3


Reference

  1.                                                                            Dunscomb's "A Century of Southern Pacific Steam Locomotives"

  2.                                                                            Church's "Southern Pacific's 4300 4-8-2's"

  3.                                                                            Diebert & Strapac's "Southern Pacific Company Steam Locomotive Compendium".  

Modeling 4-8-2  Mt-3

Sunset

  1. Load up the boiler of a Sunset Mt-3 with sheet lead (it is properly balanced), regear with a KTM 37:1 gearbox, stabilize it by soldering in brass angle across the frame on both sides, and added a drive shaft using NWSL cups & balls. It will run & pull very well. The off center bolsters used on the tender trucks are very sensitive and will occasionally derail over turnouts.


  2. Another way with a Sunset Mt-3 tender is to drill 2 holes between the tender frame channel so they cannot be seen and removed the trucks. Take lead shot and a lean mixture of white glue and mixed them together until there was twelve ounces of mix. Carefully pour it in and immediately plugged the holes with a temporary styrene plug. Right the tender in a foam cradle and tap the tender numerous times until you feel the lead shot leveled out relatively equally across the tender (about 10 taps). Time is of the essence as the glue is drying all along. Reattach the tender trucks and weighed it and checked it on tracks for balance and equal weight distribution (side to side). The tender sits very level.


4-8-2 Heavy Mt.

4-8-2  Mt-4

  1. #4346-4350


  2. According to their diagram book these were the following classes ca 1951:

  3. Skyline casing no casing:  Mt-4   Mt-4a


  4. There are some minor differences between the Mt-3 and Mt-4.

  5. There are major differences between the Mt-4 and the Mt-5.

  6. The major difference between the Mt-4s and the earlier classes was that the -4s had a casing and a front end throttle. Several different trailing truck castings were used among the different engines.

  7. Charles Givens


  8. The Mt-4 classes had one air pump on the left side. They all had casings, disc mains...the full modernization treatment.

  9. John Bruning


  10. Note also that the Mt-4 and Mt-5 had an external dry pipe from the superheater header to the turret. This is not visible on locos with the skyline casing.

  11. Ernie Fisch


  1. They were put on the Lark and Sunset Ltd.


  2. #4348 had a snowplow pilot when it received it's skyline casing.

  3. #4349 is another Mt-4 that received it's skyline casing late, another "mountain" engine. It is the only Mountain Class engine ever fitted with a SKYLINE CASING"and a clamshell" smokestack.

  4. Paul Lyons


  1. Besides #4349, you can add at least #s 4330, 4331, 4344 and 4346. Many locos worked Shasta without smoke deflectors. Those clamshells WERE required for Donner service.

  2. Brian Leppert


  1. The newer classes all were built with "sport" cabs. Another spotting feature of individual engines is the type FWH installed. The other classes had the stepped bottom 4BL or 4-1/4BL heaters installed new. When shopped these were repaired and stocked so that by the late 1940s it was "mix & match" so you need a photo to tell what's correct.

Mt-4 Drivers

  1. They had 73” drivers. The driver was a Boxpok -- not a Box-pox Of the Mt-4's only 4351, 4354 and 4365 were fitted with Boxpok discs. 4354's Boxpok set lasted only a few months, being replaced with a Universal pair. And most 4300's, if they received replacement main drivers received LFM drivers with larger and fewer holes. #4353 had a LFM main driver anyway. 


  2. Santa Fe 4-8-2s were somewhat smaller than the SP engines, but not by much. The Santa Fe's were all somewhat limited in speed by their 69" drivers, while both UP and SP opted for 73".

Lettering & Numbering

Mt-4 Axle star coloring

  1. Check the revised edition for complete accuracy on the driver types. Bob Church in both that revised Mt book and in his new book on GS engines states that the star (and the circle of dots on GS-5 drivers) was white.

  2. Tony Thompson

Reference

  1. There's a 1949 photo of #4349 w/ skyline casing and 120-C in Church's book. Another photo of #4349 in the Roseville deadline in 1955 shows it with a 160-C tender. so the 160-C tender would be correct to model the engine being scrapped.

  2. Kenneth R. Clark

Tender MT-4

  1. Mt-4 photos show there are very few engines with a casing that don't have the 160-C tender, most also have a disc main and Laird crosshead guides. There are a few exceptions with the uncommon combination of casing and 120-C tender, but these were special assignment engines...helpers, commuter service, etc. All of the Daylight Mt-4's had the 160-C.

  2. John Bruning


  1. Mt, #4321, lost it's 160-C tender when it got Laird guides. It seems that the tenders may have been division dependent as #4321 had a 12,000 gallon Vandy while on the Shasta and 16,000 gallon tenders before and after. Two other Shasta 4-8-2s has 12,000 gallon tenders but got 160-C tenders after leaving. Likewise Shasta "Decks" got 16,000 gallon tenders when assigned elsewhere.

  2. Ken Clark

Tender 120-C

  1. These are the original tenders for the Mt-4 locomotives.


  1. The 120-C tender was common although not as common as the larger 160-C in later days.

  2. Bill Daniels


  1. There are a few (very few) photos of Mt-4's with skyline casings and the large lettering with the small 120-C tender. They were in special assignments where weight was more important than fuel capacity. Examples were helper service, local, and SF commuter service.

   There's a 1949 photo of #4349 w/ skyline casing and 120-C in Church's book.

Tender 160-C

  1. The 160-C is correct for the non-updated version and much better for the updated ones.

  2. Ernie Fisch


  1. The majority (all?) of Mt-4's that didn't already have them received the large 160-C tender when they received the skyline casing. Most also received the disc main in the same time frame. Take a look at Dunscomb, Ainsworth and Church for photos of interest.


  1. All of the Daylight Mountains had 160-C tenders.

  2. John Bruning


  1. The five Espee Mt-4s painted in the "San Joaquin" semi-Daylight scheme, numbers 4350, 4352, 4353, 4361 and 4363, all had 160-C tenders when they wore semi-Daylight colors.

  2. Rob Sarberenyi

Tenders in 1948

  1. #4353    160-C-

  2. #4355    160-C-

  3. #4356    160-C-

  4. #4358    160-C-

  5. #4363    160-C-

  6. #4366    160-C-

Modeling 4-8-2  Mt-4

Athearn Mt-4  4-8-2 Southern Pacific

  1. The Mt-4, a 4-8-2, used on the 1937/38 Daylight train, will be done both as delivered and with the skyline casing, have either Vanderbilt or Semi-Vanderbilt tenders, and have different pilots, drivers and lots of other details.

With Skyline Casing

  1. Athearn Mt-4 class 4-8-2 come with skyline casing is in a couple different versions: one includes a snowplow pilot, the other with pressed corrugated steel pilot and universal disc driver. The trailing truck is sprung, but it's the axle that floats, and not the whole truck, neat. Pluses are area under the firebox is not open, nice clean delicate details, nicely done running gear and dark metallic rods and valve gear rather than shiny metal. This classic steam locomotive also features see through running boards, spoked or Boxpok main drivers, detailed backhead, and numerous separately applied detail parts including piping, valves and, generator.              

  2.                                                                              http://www.athearn.com/newsletter/051810/01_Gen_MT4_051810.pdf

  3.                                                                              http://tinyurl.com/lohlggh

Without Skyline Casing

  1. The only disappointment was its modest traction pulling a consist up a grade; more weight in the boiler would definitely help.

  2. Jack Herris


  1. The lead 4-wheel truck needs additional weight or a spring between the truck and bolster. The headlight does not have a shade over the lens. Every photo in Dunscomb's book and others show a shade.


  1. It handled 36" radii and # 6 Shinohara turnouts just fine. On flat terrain it was capable of pulling 18 over NMRA weight 40' reefers without slipping. It seems to be able to handle more pushing in reverse than forward, maybe as many as 21 or 22 (all without weights). On a 2% grade it was able to pull 5 with slight slippage at start on a curve then OK. In reverse it pushed the 5 up 2% with no slippage.

Paint

    Wrong color of silver (or flat aluminum) smokebox and firebox and delicate details.

Lettering & Numbering

  1. It’s the post-1946 era (large SOUTHERN PACIFIC lettering sans LINES.

Decals

Foothill Model Works

  1. Used Foothill Model Works SP steam locomotive decals, #4347.

San Juan Decals

  1. Charlie Givens designed the most accurate SP Steam decals that have been produced for the HO modeler. They were originally printed by Foothill Model Works and are currently produced by San Juan Decals.

  2. They can be acquired here:                                  http://www.sanjuandecals.com/sp-decal-sets.html

  3. Scott Inman

Electrical

  1. The Athearn Mt-4 with DCC & sound looks great and runs well. Headlights are done with a single micro bulb in each headlight. The numberboards are set up for function 6 on the factory sound engines. The sound is set from the factory is a reasonable level, and has really sweet-sounding 5 chime whistle. Don't like the fact there is no sound cam.


  1. The engine pulled 12 cars  (and probably another 4-6) plus a caboose up a 2.4% slope grade with ease. With no changes in CV values, when the Digitrax throttle was at 11:00. Turn off the analog option.


  2. The plug for electrical contact between the tender and the loco was hard to insert (but using forceps it went in smoothly). Power pickup is through the tender. There are contacts on the truck wheels which are hard-wired to connectors which plug into a circuit board in the tender. The headlight and backup light look like a decent color. The lights themselves appear to be very small LEDs inside the light housings. The train indicators are also lit although only two positions are well lit.).

  3. Ernie Fisch


  4. Tsunami decoder comes installed in the Athearn 4-8-2. The Athearn OEM decoder is different than the after market decoders.

  5. The have only three whistles to choose from and have some CV default value differences.

                                                                                http://www.athearn.com/ProdInfo/Files/Genesis_MT4_Sound.pdf

  1. Michael Mosher


  2. The Tsunami large steam has both the SP whistle and also the air horn for later MT and GS classes.

  3. Bob Liberman

Athearn MT-4 Chuff Sync

  1. The OEM decoder that is factory-installed in the model was custom made for Athearn for this model. It unfortunately does not offer an output for a cam kit. The only way to install a cam would be to replace the factory-installed decoder with a TSU-1000.

  2. Soundtraxx


  1. To sync the chuff rate to the drivers on the Athearn MT-4, use CV 116. The higher the number you enter the faster the chuff. Range is 0-255. Rule of thump is 4 chuffs per revolution. It works under one load. Unfortunately when you run light it is way off. You’ll have to go the cam method.

  2. Paul Deis


  1. Make sure your Mt-4 doesn’t have cv 16 too high and not enough cv 3 and probably not enough cv4. If you have cv 131 too high that is why a decoder is so loud with no load.

  2. Bob Liberman


Athearn Tender

   Two tender variations will be offered. Either Vanderbilt or Semi-Vanderbilt tenders.

  1. Those are the 120-C-6 tenders the first run came with. These are the original tenders for the Mt-4 locomotives.

  2. The 120-C tender was common although not as common as the larger 160-C in later days.

  3. Bill Daniels


  4. As for the tender only the 120-C-6 is shown along with an early and late headlight.

  5. Ernie Fisch


  1. The 160-C will be issued with the skyline casting equipped locomotive in the second release.

  2. Tom VanWormer


  1. Note you can also order the large 120-C class tenders separately, in case you want to retrofit older SP steam locos with that type.

  2. Rob Sarberenyi


Bachmann Spectrum USRA SP 4-8-2 Heavy Mountain

  1. They are good-looking and -running engines. Unfortunately the engine does not represent an SP prototype at all: our beloved Friendly Railroad never had any USRA's. The 160-C-something tender is very nice though.

  2.      Differences:

  3.          smaller                             more tapered boiler

  4.         Baker valve gear               no Worthington FWH

  5.         non delta trailing truck    lower stack

  6.              

  7. The Bachman 4-8-2 (USRA mountain) isn't close to either SP or SSW engines, though you can always use it as a stand-in.

  8. Tony Thompson


  9. Add the centered headlight, oil tender, sports cab and aluminum smokebox door and you have a real SP engine. The model has a moderate amount of detail typical of Bachmann Spectrum products. Blackened metal wheels. It's fully assembled; there are no detail parts to install.

Operating Characteristics:

  1. It seems to pull very well, as do most Bachmanns. The Light Mountain pulls about 20 to 22 cars up the Klamath grade on a club layout. It might pull an additional one or two cars.

Bachmann S.P. Oil Tenders

  1. The Bachmann SP heavy mountain, was a reasonable model of the 160-C. Another Espee tender looks like a possible 90-C or 100-C. The handrails look suspicious but the rest of the tender is good. Beware the tender "coal hole extensions" fouling the underside of the cab roof when the engine and tender are close coupled. Especially when backing through switches. You may also want to check that the front of the tender isn't fouling the cab grab irons when loco and tender are close coupled. The "U" bend at the bottom of the cab grab irons seems to be a broader radius than on the light mountain. Apparently Bachmann is no longer making them.

Upgrade of a Bachmann 160-C tender

  1. I have uploaded a new file to my DCC Conversions Folder in the Files section showing my upgrade of a Bachmann 160-C tender to run with my SP 4353. The front bulkhead pulls out, giving access to the cavity. I added speakers and a Tsunami to the tender along with the cosmetic improvements.

  2. Pete Hall


Key

  1. Key Imports SP MT-4 Semi-Streamlined 4-8-2 unpainted with 160-C-1 tender, model includes small snow plow for pilot and extra alternate main driver style.


Max Gray/KTM Mt-4

  1. #4347 is the only skylined MT that has all four of these features:

  2. - multiple bearing crosshead

  3. - spoked main driver

  4. - Worthington BL-4 feedwater heater

  5. -articulated steam pipes on the booster


  1. Remotor it with an Sagami and flywheel. Use the high rpm motor for it to doublehead with other locos.


  2. I have one of the Max Gray MTs, and it not only runs smoothly and quietly, but will pull the paint off the walls.

  3. Tony Thompson

Electrical

  1. An intermittent short on a brass Mt-4, was caused by the brass brake hangers which were occasionally shorting against the insulated tires on the fireman's side drivers. Because the hangers were screwed to the frame, the short was causing the decoder to shut down. The solution is to use a set of plastic brake hangers, substituting them for the brass, and the problem is solved. Put the brass ones

  2. on the grounded drivers, and the plastic ones on the insulated side. Precision Scale Co. sells them (Part # K-31643).

  3. Glenn Joesten


Reference

  1. Posted images of HO scale Max Gray/KTM Espee Mt-4 class 4-8-2 in the list's Files section

  2.                                                                        *(see the folder named Espee Mt-4).

PFM

  1. A PFM brass HO scale Western Pacific MTP-44 class ex-Florida East Coast (FEC) 4-8-2. When compared to a Max Gray/KTM Espee Mt-4, the ex-FEC loco looked so small and diminutive standing next to it.

Samhongsa

  1. For a Korean model, but even then the thinner brass and softer metals in the Korean models result in a less than comparable runner. Remotor a Key Mt-4 (Samhongsa), adding weight and a flywheel and a KTM 37:1 gearbox. In a head to head test with a SP KTM 4-8-2 with the same motor and flywheel, same gearbox, same driver size, and the same engine weight, the KTM engine pulled 50% more. The Key was much better than stock, but it was no where as good a puller as the KTM model.   


4-8-2  Mt-5

  1. According to their diagram book these were the following classes ca 1951:

  2. Skyline casing no casing:   Mt-5   Mt-5a

  3. There are major differences between the Mt-4 and the Mt-5.


  4. The Mt-5s had two air pumps on the right side and there was a large feedwater heater on the other side.

  5. Note also that the Mt-4 and Mt-5 had an external dry pipe from the superheater header to the turret. This is not visible on locos with the skyline casing.

  6. Ernie Fisch


  7. #4359, an engine that actually had the large "Southern Pacific" lettering on the tender before rebuilding with a skyline casing. It also had the clamshell stack and snowplow pilot of a "mountain" engine.

  8. #4360 is the only one with a disc main driver.

Tender

  1. All of the Mt-5's were delivered with the large 160-C tender.


  2. #4370 was assigned a 160-C-2 tender number 8850 from January 1947 until July 1952.

  3. #4369 was assigned a 120-C tender in 1951!

  4. Tim O'Connor

Tenders in 1948

  1. #4368    160-C-

  2. #4369    160-C-

  3. #4370    160-C-

  4. #4371    160-C-2

  5. #4373    160-C-

  6. #4374    160-C-

Reference

  1. Find info on Mt-class numbering:                       http://espee.railfan.net/sp_steam_mountain.html

Modeling 4-8-2  Mt-5

Athearn

  1. The first run will be #4383 with a pre-1946 tender.

Key

  1. Key Imports SP MT-5 Semi-Streamlined 4-8-2 unpainted with 160-C-1 tender. The model includes small snow plow for pilot and extra alternate main driver style.

Sunset

  1. SP Mt5 4-8-2, with skyline casing.

Westside/KTM

    It imported 1111 SP MT-5’s. It was a good runner.

                                                                      http://www.flickr.com/photos/29427440@N00/8253253744/in/set-72157632189959079/



4-8-4 GS - series

Details

Classification Lights

  1. They could be one of two colors (green or white) or dark. Green equals a section of a schedule (i.e. 1-98 when there is to be a second 98, which itself might or might not display 2-98 in the train indicators, depending on whether it was the last section( i.e. 98) or the second of yet another section. White equals an extra train (i.e. X4449). Dark indicates a scheduled train operating on its schedule. Therefore, you can't have both green AND dark (or white and dark, either).

  2. SP DTCTR

Emergency Lights

  1. None of Espee's GS's had the changeable red "emergency air brake application" aspect found on the PA's, E's and F's and the Train Masters too.

  2. Kevin Bunker

Marker Lights

  1. If there WERE markers, they would be on the tender if the engine was running light, or the pilot beam if running in reverse.

  2. SP DTCTR

Pilot Stripes

  1. The stripes on the GS pilots were actually cast aluminum. By 1953 all of  the GS-4s & -5s had hit so many cars pulling the Daylight & Lark trains

  2. that they were well mangled and so were removed rather than repaired, mostly in 1953-1954.


  3. Some of the GS-2s &-3s retained the stripes until scrapped---They had hit fewer cars and the pilots were painted all aluminum so it wasn't worth removing them unless they were really beat up.

  4. Charles Givens


Paint

Insignia

  1. None of the GS-class Daylight locomotives ever sported any insignia other that the Daylight one.

  2. Bill Daniels

Pilot Stripes

  1. All the GS locomotives that remained in "Daylight" paint continued to have the Aluminum bands on the pilot and were painted orange with the aluminum bands or the bands were removed or painted over to give the pilot a solid orange face. The only engines painted in "Daylight" colors that had aluminum pilots were the ones that hauled the Sunbeam. Otherwise the solid aluminum pilots were only on

  2. the stripped GSs that ended up painted black. Other GS's much later on got a solid aluminum-silver paint job, though this seems to have occurred after their side skirts were removed (the as built skirtless GS-6s not included)...although most or all of the GS-6s did get the silver pilot treatment before their retirement(s).

  3. Jim Scott


  1. Various GS's got their pilots redone -- usually after the ornamental metal strips were yanked off following one or another obstacle collision -- and then repainted solid orange. The pilot stripes on the GS engines were aluminum strips. After hitting enough autos the soft aluminum got rather mangled and when it got beyond repair it was removed. No schedule, just as needed, so photos are your only guide.


  2. Photos of engines #4448 through #4458 show skirts and Daylight paint without the stripes, but not #4459. So all or the last dozen Daylight engine (maybe except #4459) lost their stripes by mid to late 1954 and some as early as circa 1950.


  3. To give some perspective, circa 1953 train 99 hit 7 cars in 7 days between Morgan Hill and Lick. There were no survivors among the autos, which tend to disintegrate when hit at 75 MPH.


  4. In "SP Coast Line Pictorial" there is a photo of #4455 descending Cuesta in 1953 still with skirts and painted in full Daylight scheme with the stainless steel(?)metal bands on its pilot. By this time most other GS-4/5s had the pilot bands removed with the pilot remaining entirely in orange.

References

  1. If you are working with GS locomotives and really want the "skinny" then you really need the revised edition of the Church book on the "Daylights" (really a new book, and certainly not just another printing) for information on GS-3 and GS-6s that still had the metal stripes after deskirting (in the case of the GS-3) by the mid 1950s. The same as the ones shown in earlier pictures of the GSs. 

SP GS-1 thru 7 Drawings

  1. Well done article with photos by Bob Church follows from pg. 59-61. Armitage drawings for the GS classes are also in Church's book on these locomotives, along with other info.

  2. Go to:                       http://shorterlink.com/?813NF1


  3. Side elevation drawings of GS-class locomotives appeared in the original "Those Daylight 4-8-4s, The Story of Southern Pacific GS Class Locomotives" Bob Church published in 1966. The foldouts appear in the back of that volume.


  1.                                                                            SP Painting & Lettering Guide, pg. 20, 21

  2.                                                                            SP Painting & Lettering Guide, pg. 24, 25

Lettering & Numbering

  1.                                                                            SP Painting & Lettering Guide, pg. 20, 21

  2.                                                                            SP Painting & Lettering Guide, pg. 24, 25



Modeling GS Series Locos

Electrical

Repowering

  1. If you want to power a GS - 2/3/4/5/6 HO tender with Buckeye trucks, consider using a Kato RSC-2 chassis. The wheelbase is very close, any minor differences will be hidden by sideframes. And it is a Kato so the mechanism is top rate. You have to shorten the frame a couple of feet and other mods to fit, but it's cheaper and more powerful than the expensive power trucks.

  2. Kenneth R. Clark

References

SP GS-1 Drawings

  1. Drawings appear in HO scale for classes GS-1 through GS-7 on pages 403-408 of:

  2. "Southern Pacific Daylight Locomotives"

  3. by Robert J. Church

  4. Signature Press2004

  5. ISBN # 1-930013-11-6


  6. There are some excellent S scale (3/16" = 1') Southern Pacific GS-1 drawings by Al Armitage in Mainline Modeler.

  7. (MM, June 1995 page 55). Go to:            http://index.mrmag.com/


4-8-4  GS-1

  1. Used on the Coast Mail "Sad Sam" train (trains #71/72).

Details

Daylight Steam Ejectors

  1. The 1939 Daylight had steam ejector AC, the 1941 Daylight had Waukesha AC.

Skirt

  1. A photo in the Coast Line Pictorial, pg. 284 has an erroneous date on it. It clearly was taken no later than 1941, since the number boards are at the front of the skyline casing, and there is obviously a step in the skirts ahead of the cab. Those items were changed in about 1941 after delivery of the GS-4's.

Lettering & Numbering

  1. With the trailing truck booster, the correct cab data would be:

  2. 27 262

  3. GS-1 GS-73 ---- -------- -SF

  4. 30 B-104

  5. In case the lettering above, it is 27/30 and 262/B-104. Without the booster, the B-104 gets eliminated.

Tender

220-R-1 class

  1. Some of the GS-1 class got these after construction, the ladder is left of center. The GS-1's were originally built with 16,000 gallon semi-Vandy tenders and some retained those tenders for their entire careers.

Tender Lettering & Numbering

  1. SP painted the weights on the tender sides. The data painted on the sides of the cab below the loco number should read:

  2. GS-1 GS 73 27/30 266 SF

  3. "Correct" tender weight data is variable of course, since it was stenciled on after actual weighing of the tender. For a 220-R-1, the weights below are typical:

  4. 145,000 LBS LT SP

  5. 373,000 LBS LD

References

  1. There is a superb book covering Southern Pacific's majestic GS-class 4-8-4s in great detail.

  2.     Go to:             http://www.signaturepress.com/DL.html

Modeling 4-8-4  GS-1

Balboa / KTM Models

Challenger Imports Limited (CIL)

  1. Their detailing is exquisite, not to mention features superb running characteristics.

  2. Lou

Key/Samhongsa

PFM/Fujiyama

Sunset /Samhongsa



4-8-4  GS-2

Details

GS-2 Step Down

  1. GS-3's had the running boards straight back to the cab, the skirts straight back to the cab before dropping down to the bottom of the cab, and the number boards back midway on the skyline casing. This is correct for the period 1941-1950, because the skirts and running boards were modified after delivery of the first GS-4's to match the look of the GS-4's. As delivered, the GS-2's had a step down in both the running board and skirt ahead of the cab, and this would only be correct with the number boards up at the front of the skyline casing.


  2. There at least five photos in Bob Church's new Daylight  Locomotives book of GS-2s and 3s without the step down in front of the cab taken  prior to 1941. Two photos were from 1939 (p107). The train  indicators were still in the front. You won’t see any GS-3  photos showing the step down after May 1939 (the date of the first photo with it altered). 


  3. If one looks at page 26 in Overland's book "Overland Models...the First 10 Years", there is a painted GS-3 with the step down in the running board and skirt ahead of the cab, but with the number boards midway on the skyline casing. The step down running board, midway number boards combination is incorrect.

Skirts GS-2

  1.          Number      Skirts and Black Paint      Repainted Daylight      Skirts Removed

  2.          4410          ca. 1945 to 6-47                      ??      2-30-50

  3.              "              Engine operated out of Los Angeles in black paint in 1947

  4.          4411          ca.1946-1947                      ??      1-30-50

  5.              "              Engine was running on Sunset Limited in black paint 1946-47

  6.          4412         ca. 1947                      ??      4-22-50

  7.          4413          1949                               ??      3-21-50

  8.          4414          11-1945, 1946, 1949            ??      1-  2-50

  9.              "              Engine was on train 43 out of Los Angeles in 1945

  10.          4415          7-1942 to 7-48                      ??      4-27-50

  11.              "              Engine was on train 71 out of Los Angeles in 1943


  12. Menke's list for GS-2‘s appears on page 393 in Bob Church's book "Southern Pacific Daylight Locomotives".


  13. All GS's lost their skirts, the majority in 1950. Diebert and Strapac, in their Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive Compendium, provide dates when skirts were removed (with a few exceptions).

Assignment

  1. GS-2 engines were assigned away from the coast. The black GS-2's were not necessarily assigned to the Northern District. Some operated out of Los Angeles.


  1.  #4410 and 4414 were long time Shasta engines, painted black of course.

Paint

  1. All of these engines came new painted in Daylight colors. Pictures of each of all of the GS's (1 thru 8), you’ll never see a GS-2 painted Daylight with the number boards anywhere but at the extreme front of the loco.


  2. On page 284 of "Southern Pacific's Coast Line Pictorial" there’s a photo supposedly taken in 1945 of GS-2 No. 4415 in full Daylight paint and skirts on the front of Overnight #374 at Glendale (The 1945 date may not be correct because the Overnights weren't reinstated after WW II until April 1, 1946 according to what John Signor wrote in "Southern Pacific's Coast Line"). That was the date applied to the photo when it ran in Trains Magazine: 1945. And that was in the 1940s.

  3. Tony Thompson    


  4. The smokeboxes on these engines were not black, although most were a dark graphite, not a light graphite/silver color. But they were a different  color than the boiler. 


  5. GS-2's usually had the handrail on the smokebox painted the same color as the smokebox front.

GS-2 Repainted Black

  1. All the GS-2 engines were repainted to black early in WWII, around early 1942 and lasted until 1946-1947 or as late as 1949 on some engines.. There’s no photographic or other documentation to suggest that any of them were ever repainted into the Daylight scheme following the war. They remained in black with their skirts intact until 1950, when the skirts were removed.


  2. On page 53 of Church's "Those Daylight 4-8-4's" has a 1942 photo of No. 4415 at Portland in an apparent all-black paint scheme. So, at least No. 4415 went from Daylight to all-black then back to Daylight (this theory would quickly be shot down if any SP employee timetable prior to the January 1942 discontinuance of  the Overnight lists a schedule for #374).

Lettering & Numbering

  1. All were lettered Southern Pacific Lines.


  2. Nor one in the partial Daylight scheme are lettered with the larger Southern Pacific. There may have been one but there’s no photographic proof. By the time the large Southern Pacific lettering came into being 1946/1947 all of the 2's were black.

Tenders

220-R-1 Tender

  1. GS-2 220-R-1 tenders had, according to Arnold Menke's excellent tender section, the Oliver backup lights removed between 1941-1944 and replaced with headlights. This would have been when some if not all were still in Daylight Livery.

GS-2 Tender Ladder

  1. Note that the cab ladders were attached to the locomotive for GS-4s and 5s and to the tenders on GS-2s and 3s. The ladder is left of center. It had ladder extensions.

Tender Paint

  1. With ladder extensions            painted black

  2. Without ladder extensions       painted Daylight


  1. On the GS-2 and GS-3 tenders the orange and aluminum bronze did go below the rivet line at the bottom of the tender and the black stripe was quite narrow.

  2. Jeff Cauthen

Tender Lettering

  1. This tender sometimes would have appeared before the lettering change (Orange front number board, small lettering high on the tender with "Lines") without the ladder.


  2. The GS-2 never had the large lettering on the tender. 

Modeling 4-8-4  GS-2

Balboa

  1. 1970 Master Series GS-2 locomotive that came in a gold box. The Balboa came with a 16,000 gallon Vanderbuilt tender. It has a superb paint job in the as-delivered scheme and runs superbly and has no problem negotiating a 27" mainline curve. The GS-2 needed nothing done other than a piece of brass shim to stop the gear box from floating. It came with skirts. It has some (pressed) backhead detail, an open frame motor, a (wafting) smoke unit, and a non-constant (single naturally) headlight. It should have a Precision Engineered plate on bottom. The gearbox should be a KTM 27:1 idler gearbox. It is factory numbered and lettered as #4410 with "SOUTHERN PACIFIC" rather than "Southern Pacific Lines"on the tender.


  1. Replacement of the motor with a 2032 can motor and large flywheel made my 4410 the best operating steam model I own. In addition to an excellent mechanism, sheet metal work and rivet detail was excellent and it doesn't have "skyline pox". 

  2. Kenneth R. Clark

Challenger

  1. The GS-2's was imported a few years ago by Challenger Imports, Ltd., in three models. The first GS-2, #4410, was the class lead locomotive. Modeled largely as delivered and, just as in the prototype, lettered "Lines" for the  Morning Daylight (also imported by Challenger as a 1941 train), this  locomotive comprised the most numerous version in the import project. Four of these particular GS-2's were designated and lettered  for #4412.


  2. The second of the three imported versions was modeled as post-war, black painted, still with skirts, and modeled after #4414. 


  3. The third of the three GS-2's chosen was #4415, modeled late in its life and after deskirting. This locomotive ended its service in the San Francisco-San Jose commute pool. 


  4. All built by Samhongsa, the project totaled more then 300 models. The most numerous version was #4410/#4412 with more then ninety models. The least produced was GS-2 #4414 comprised of only twenty-five models. 


  5. There’s no doubt that the CIL models has more detail. See the uploaded photo section of a PSC O Scale F-4 2-10-2. Appearance-wise it is stock from the factory except for the improved headlight, classification lights, and number boards.

  6.   

  7. If you dig out photos of #3706, you'll find that this model is an exact match in virtually every detail.

Sunset

  1. Sunset imported a GS-2.

WSM

  1. The Westside GS-2 was imported once in 1981 as part a larger group of GS-3's and 4's and 5's. They all came with can motors and 37-1 gear boxes.They were all in Daylight paint but were unlettered. The last two spotting features of this run were rivet detail on the skyline casing and backhead detail in the cab.


  2. There was a second run of WSM GS-2, which you can also find in the Brown Book, and that some were FP'd  black and a few imported unpainted.

Paint 

  1. IM posted a prototype  photo with a light graphite/silver smokebox. So based on the photographic evidence they got it right, at least for one  prototype. Brush on Floquil Dark Graphite with vertical strokes to represent the graphite color, it doesn't look as realistic to spray on the graphite. Repaint the firebox and smokebox.

Modeling 220-R-1 Tenders

Balboa


4-8-4  GS-3

  1. GS-3 put on Coast Daylight. Put on second section of Lark, Coaster & Sunset Ltd.

Details

GS-3 Step Down

  1. GS-3's had the running boards straight back to the cab, the skirts straight back to the cab before dropping down to the bottom of the cab, and the number boards back midway on the skyline casing. This is, of course, correct for the period 1941-1950, because the skirts and running boards were modified after delivery of the first GS-4's to match the look of the GS-4's. As delivered, the GS-3's had a step down in both the running board and skirt ahead of the cab, and this would only be correct with the number boards up at the front of the skyline casing.

Cab Ladders

  1. Note that the cab ladders were attached to the locomotive for GS-4s and 5s and to the tenders on GS-2s and 3s.

Whistle

   GS3 thru 5 locomotives came from Lima with a deep "steamboat" 3-chime whistle, not the SP 6-chime.

  1. All of the GS-3 thru GS-6 engines had the Hancock three chime "long bell" low note whistles. and were in regular service.

  2. Charles Givens

Paint   

  1.     Number    Skirts and Black Paint      Repainted Daylight      Skirts Removed

  2.      4416      .                      .     in 1950

  3.      4417     .                     .      1-23-50

  4.      4418      6-1947                      .      4-25-50

  5.      4419      1947, 12-1949             ??      1-13-50

  6.      4420      1949                      ??      1- 2-50

  7.      4421      8-1948                      ??      1-29-50

  8.      4422      5-1948                      ??      3-20-50

  9.      4423      11-1946 - 7-1947             ??      4- 3-50

  10.      4424      .                      .      2- 7-50

  11.      4425      .                      .      1-31-50

  12.      4426      .                     .               by 3-1950

  13.      4427      5-1948                      ??      1-26-50

  14.      4428      8-1949                      ??      5-  6-50

  15.      4429      .                      .               by 7-1950


  16. Menke's list for GS-3‘s appears on page 393 in Bob Church's book "Southern Pacific Daylight Locomotives".


  17. Most of the following apparently kept their Daylight paint without interruption. Thus for these I have indicated the last known date in Daylight paint (prior to deskirting). Presumably an engine kept its Daylight paint up to the time of skirt removal.


  18. All the GS-3 engines were repainted to black early in WW II, say around early 1942.There’s never been found any photographic or other documentation to suggest that any of them were ever repainted into the Daylight scheme following the war. They remained in black with their skirts intact until 1950, when the skirts were removed. However, there remains a persistent rumor that at least one GS-3 was repainted into Daylight and even had the large SOUTHERN PACIFIC on the tender.


  19. GS-3s usually had the handrail on the smokebox painted the same color as the smokebox front.

Tender

235R-1Tender

  1. Photos of GS-3 tenders show the lower location in a couple of books, including page 126 of  Coast Line Pictorial (they had their backup light atop the tender, not mounted into the back face of the tender body).

Tender Paint

  1. On the GS-2 and GS-3 tenders the orange and aluminum bronze did go below the rivet line at the bottom of the tender and the black stripe was quite narrow.

  2. Jeff Cauthen

Modeling 4-8-4  GS-3

Bachmann Kitbash

  1. It would be possible to bash a GS-3 from Bachmann's GS-4 (either the Plus version or the Spectrum as the single headlight smokebox front is available from PSC. The cab should be relatively easy, If you de-skirt a Bachmann Plus, you got some detailing work to do as well.

  2. Bachmann has the wrong size drivers, crummy gears, and a host of other problems. 

Bachmann 235R-1Tender

  1. The major work appears to be the tender. Removing the rear ladders from the 235R-1 tender, shaving the top and applying a flat top to the tank plus building up a deck to create a 220R-1 would be a major part of the work.

Challenger

    Challenger 2425.1 SP GS-3 4418 Ptd. Black deskirted post ‘46

Sunset

  1. If you want a fair GS-3, look for a Sunset GS-3 (Prestige Series). These can be fixed up to be better locos than the Bachmann. The stand in locos are cheaper but the man-power to produce crude stand-ins does not justify the expense of parts and time. 


4-8-4  GS-4

  1. SP #4430-4457


  2. GS-4 Center driver flange 21'-6". The GS-4 had the longer rigid wheelbase versus a 4-10-2.

  3. Ernie Fisch  


  4. The GS-4 class had 80" drivers, three generators and all weather cabs.

Assignment

  1. Ran on Coast Line. Daylight-painted Mt-4s were sometimes used in freight service while painted in Daylight colors. For example, one day in 1951, #4350 was the power for an auto parts train from Bakersfield to Oakland. Shortly after, #4350 hauled a freight train from Oakland to Roseville. Then it worked a freight from Roseville to Bakersfield. 


  2. In Bob Church's first GS Book he stated that #4431 was the only GS-4  assigned to the Shasta Division (In the 1940s) and was all black. On the July 31, 1948 roster  #4431 was assigned to the Western Division and #4433  was assigned to the Portland Division. While both are candidates for having been in Sacramento, #4431 appears to be the better choice. 


  3. GS-4 #4430-4449 put on Morning & Noon Daylight, Lark, Sunset Ltd. (the Coast part) and the Coaster.


  1. The big drivered GS-4s were seldom assigned to trains going though the Shasta Division.


  1. The Semi-Daylight GS-4s also ran on trains 71 & 72, so this was absolutely NOT some sort of San Joaquin paint scheme -- it was just a derivative of the Daylight scheme that happened to be used on a variety of routes.

  2. Pat LaTorres


Details

Upper Headlight

  1. The upper lamp headlight is the Mars light on the GS-4. This was done to make the light more visible at longer distances. It would oscillate in a figure-eight pattern to attract attention. They never had a red light.  

  2.                                                                             http://trainweb.org/gyra/photo/marslts.htm

Single Mars headlight:

  1.                                                                             http://espee.railfan.net/nonindex/steam-02/4454a_sp-steam-gs04-byron_bostwick.jpg

  2.                                                                             http://espee.railfan.net/nonindex/steam-02/4454c_sp-steam-gs04-byron_bostwick.jpg

  3.                                                                             http://espee.railfan.net/nonindex/steam-02/4450_sp-steam-gs04-byron_bostwick.jpg

Twin Mars Headlight:

                                                                                http://espee.railfan.net/nonindex/steam-02/4430_sp-steam-gs04-byron_bostwick.jpg


  1. Somewhere along the line these were replaced with the twin-sealed-beam lights as #4449 presently has. A number of published photos show in-service GS-4s/5s with the TSB lights.

  2. Glenn Joesten


  3. All of SP's GS-4 and GS-5 locomotives, including SP 4449, originally had a Mars light that used a rotating reflector and a incandescent bulb (similar to the original spec Mars lights on SP's E units, but clear instead of red). During the 1950's it was replaced with the current arrangement, since the new sealed beam lights were more reliable. The unit on 4449 is* an original SP light from the 1950's.

  4. Bill Daniels

Lower Headlight

  1. Lower lamp was a standard headlamp.

Classification/marker Lights

  1.             Classification lamps = front of train

  2.             Marker lamps          = rear of train

  3. The marker lights on the tender would only be lit (red and green same as caboose) if the engine was running light on the mainline. The classification lights would only be lit if the train was running as an extra (white) or had sections following of a regular scheduled train (green). It must be pointed out that, except in the rare circumstance of an engine backing on mainline (out of yard limits) trackage, engines do NOT carry marker lights on their front; markers define the end of a train.


  4. The lights, if displayed on the front of an engine, are classification lamps, which will not be illuminated in the case of a scheduled train, unless that train is running in sections, whereupon the lights and flags will be green on all except the last section. Extra trains will display white class lamps and flags.


  5.     "Train-An engine or motor, or more than one engine or motor coupled, with or without cars, displaying markers."

Cab Ladder

  1. Church's book on the Daylight 4-8-4, pg. 31 and 32 show interior and exterior shots of a GS-4 cab before it's installed on the engine. The outside rear of the cab does not have a ladder on the cab. There is a ladder inside, nothing on the outside except the apron up at the hatch level. There were hand rails on the front of the tender with steps of sorts up to the tank to climb to the top of the tank.

GS-4 Step Down

  1. GS-3's had the running boards straight back to the cab to match the look of the GS-4's.

Generators

  1. All of the GS-4 and GS-5 locomotives were built with three generators... one for general locomotive lighting, one for the oscillating Mars light, and one for the electro-pneumatic braking found on the Daylight's train sets. Earlier GS-class locomotives didn't have the Mars light, so they were equipped with only two generators. Most, if not all, GS-4s had the third turbogenerators removed but very few had the opening plated over. I've checked about a dozen engine's LS photos where one can see that is the case. I didn't find any plated over spaces in these photos.

  2. Charles Givens


  1. One photo shows GS-4 #4456 in black, with two generators. Since this was near the end of it's operating life, it can be surmised that this was a very late or final engine modification.

  2. Ken Clark

Whistle

   GS3 thru 5 locomotives came from Lima with a deep "steamboat" 3-chime whistle, not the SP 6-chime.

  1. All of the GS-3 thru GS-6 engines had the Hancock three chime "long bell" low note whistles. and were in regular service.

  2. Charles Givens


  3. It had a draw handle like in the #4449.

Skirt

  1. All GS's lost their skirts, the majority in 1950. Twelve engines, 4448-4459, kept their skirts until 1955.

  2. All other GS-4's were almost immediately deskirted after the last 4-8-4 powered trains on January 7, 1955. A pile of Daylight skirts at Bayshore removed from several engines in mid January, 1955.

Paint

GS-4 in Daylight colors

  1. All of these engines came new painted in Daylight colors. During WWII at least some engines were repainted black. This happened about 1942-1943 and lasted until 1946-1947, as late as 1949 on some engines. Photographic evidence is scarce for GS-4's during the war (and one or two years subsequent) so it is unclear how many engines in these classes may have been repainted black. Most GS-4's stayed in Daylight colors through this period.


  2. Doug Richter took a photograph of 4455 in San Francisco on Feb. 17, 1955, as says that it was just out of the Bayshore Shops and was the last Daylight paint job on a GS. They were experimenting with a new type of paint. So we still are not sure which engine last ran in Daylight colors.


  3. The color the hand rails along the side of the boiler and side of the cab and tender and tender side ladders  were painted differed. You would have to have photographs of the locomotive you are modeling during the time period you are modeling. Consistency was not a strong suit at S.P. Typically, the handrails along the boiler are black, that is consistent.


  4. When built, cab ladders and steps were plated nickel-cadmium. They were latter painted.  


  5. When they were delivered with the orange and red livery, the smokebox appears to be black. It is harder to tell for the firebox, but probably black. There are black and white builder's photos and color photos of the GS locomotives in later service, i.e. after shop repairs.     


  6. #4430-4447     deskirted and painted black in 1950.

  7. #4448-4459     in the Daylight pool until 1/55. Between 1/55 and 2/55 they were deskirted and painted black. Last in service in                       

  8.                         Daylight colors was #4456.


  1. #4441              without skirts but still painted in the Daylight color scheme. is one loco which wore this scheme for a time.

  2.                         Steps are black, pilot appears black with aluminum stripes.

GS-4 with Semi-Daylight Scheme

  1. According to Arnold Menke's table of GS-4 paint schemes (with dates!) on page 394 in "Southern Pacific Daylight Locomotives", by Robert J. Church, Signature Press, 2004, ISBN # 1-930013-11-6, the first application of the scheme appeared in January 1950. It would seem this scheme lasted at least into 1952, perhaps a little longer.


  2. Espee's ten GS-4 class locos receiving the semi-Daylight scheme include:

  3. 4433  4437  4441  4445

  4. 4434  4438  4442

  5. 4435  4439  4444

GS-4 with Black Pilot

  1. #4433, 4447       Steps are black, pilot appears black with aluminum stripes.

  2. Southern Pacific Daylight Steam Locomotives. Ken Johnson's On page 34 & 66 is a B&W photo with a black pilot.

  3. Spen Kellogg

Reference

Semi Daylight GS4

Pbase gallery:              http://www.pbase.com/espeef5/brass_steam


GS-4 Skirt Paint Schedule        by A. Menke

  1.      Number      Skirts and Black Paint              Repainted Daylight              Skirts Removed

  2.          4430      Daylight paint as late as 1-1949                  .                  3-22-50

  3.          4431      Black 1946 - 1948                     ??                  3-18-50

  4.          4432      Daylight paint as late as 12-1949                  .                  3-13-50

  5.          4433      Black ca. 1946, 9-1947                        Daylight by 10-1947      1-23-50 but cab and tender in Daylight on 8-1950

  6.              "                 .                           Black by 6-1954

  7.          4434      Daylight paint as late as 10-1948                  .                  3-24-50 but cab and tender in Daylight on 10-1950

  8.              "                       .                                            Black by 1952

  9.          4435      Daylight paint as late as 11-1948                  .                  3-15-50

  10.          4436      Daylight paint as late as 12-1947                  .                  1-27-50

  11.          4437      Daylight paint as late as 10-1948                  .                  4-23-50 but cab and tender in Daylight paint

  12.              "         .                                            Black by 10-1953

  13.          4438      Black 3-1946                                       Daylight by 9-1947 and as late as 7-1949   

  14.                                                                                                                                 1-31-50 but cab and tender in Daylight on 5-1950

  15.              "         .                                            Black by 5-1955

  16.          4439      Daylight paint as late as 5-1950                   .                  4-28-50 but cab and tender in Daylight paint

  17.              "                    .                  Black by 9-1952

  18.          4440      Daylight paint as late as 3-1949                  .                  3-11-50

  19.          4441      Daylight paint as late as 1-1951                  .                         4-21-50 but cab and tender in Daylight on 7-1950

  20.              "      .                                                Black by 8-1952

  21.          4442      Daylight paint as late as 11-1949                 .                  3-9-50 but cab and tender in Daylight on 6-1950

  22.              "      .                                                Black by 3-1951

  23.          4443      Daylight paint as late as 4-1948                 .                  3-26-50

  24.          4444      Daylight paint as late as 6-1947                  .                  1-23-50 but cab and tender in Daylight on 3-1950

  25.              "      .                                                Black by 10-1951

  26.          4445      Black 7-1946                           Daylight ca. 1947      3-5-50 but cab and tender in Daylight on 8-1950

  27.              "      .                                                Black by 1954

  28.          4446      Daylight paint as late as 3-1949                  .                  3-14-50

  29.          4447      Daylight paint as late as 1948                  .                  2-23-50

  30.          4448      Black ca. 1946                                      Daylight by 10-1947; lasted at least until 9-1953 by 8-1955

  31.          4449      Daylight paint as late as 10-1954                  .                  by 5-1955

  32.          4450      Daylight paint as late as 12-1954                  .                  by 4-1955

  33.          4451      Daylight paint as late as 3-1954                  .                  by 6-1955

  34.          4452      Daylight paint as late as 12-1953                  .                  by 6-1955

  35.          4453      Daylight paint as late as 9-1952                  .                  5-1-55

  36.          4454      Daylight paint as late as 1-1955                  .                  by 1-1955

  37.          4455      Daylight paint as late as 3-1955                 .                  by 4-1955

  38.              "        This loco last to receive a new Daylight paint job (2-1955, per D. Richter); it was short lived, being deskirted by 6-1955

  39.          4456      Black 1-1946                                         Daylight by 9-1947; lasted at least until 9-1954 by 2-1956

  40.          4457      Daylight paint as late as 3-1953                      .      by 2-1955


  41. Menke's list says that a few engines lost skirts but kept the Daylight cab and tender paint, as with this locomotive, for a period of months before deskirting began. The photo, incidentally, is also in Church's new book, now on pg. 241. This also appears on page 394 in Bob Church's book "Southern Pacific Daylight Locomotives"


  42. Specific de-skirted black painted GS-4 locos ran through Sacramento in the mid and late 1940's. NO GS-4's were de-skirted until 1950. The first two to loss there skirts were 4433 and 4444. According to Strapac's SP Steam Compendium both were de-skirted on 1-23-50, 4433 in LA and 4444 in El Paso.It would be surprising if any "black" GS-4's were running through Sacramento on a regular basis in the late 40's. Most, if not all, were assigned to LA and running  on the Sunset Route in the late 40's.


  43. There are photos that indicate otherwise, assuming dates in captions are correct:

  44. Page 111 of Church's "Those Daylight 4-8-4's (sic )" has an H.L. Kelso photo supposedly taken in 1948 of GS-4 No. 4438 on the "Imperial" leaving Los Angeles Union Station with skirts removed but with tender and cab still painted in red/orange.


  45. This is not a black GS-4, so doesn't fit the original question. More interesting is why the shop records show this locomotive deskirted in 1950 but photographed in 1948 without skirts. It may, of course, have been a temporary matter if shopping was not completed in time to meet an engine assignment.


  46. Pg. 101 of Johnsen's "Daylight 4449's Family Album" has a Harold Vollrath photo supposedly taken in Oct. 1948 at Colton of GS-4 #4437 without skirts and painted all-black. Date might be wrong. Menke's list contradicts it, as do the shop records in the Compendium.

  47. Tony Thompson  


GS-4 Repainted Black

  1. During WWII at least some engines were repainted black. This happened about 1942-1943 and lasted until 1946-1947 or as late as 1949 on some engines. Photographic evidence is scarce for GS-4's during the war (and one or two years subsequent) so it is unclear how many engines in these classes may have been repainted black.

GS-4 Silver Stripe


GS-4 Running board

  1. On a GS-4 painted "Daylight" colors, the running board outside adjacent to the cab, under the cab numbers - the deck tread - was painted black, like the running board forward of it.

GS-4 Pilot

  1. Pictures have the pilot on "Daylights" painted either orange with the silver stripes of just a solid orange. Looking at the 50s period, then the pilot will be correct if it is orange.

  2. Jim Scott


  3. Only the "Black" GS4s had the pilot painted aluminum and those that kept their "Daylight" pain in the 50s had either the all orange pilot or the orange pilot with the aluminum overlays on it.

  4. Jim Scott


  1. In "SP Coast Line Pictorial" there is a photo of #4455 descending Cuesta in 1953 still with skirts and painted in full Daylight scheme with the stainless steel(?)metal bands on its pilot. By this time most other GS-4s had the pilot bands removed with the pilot remaining entirely in orange.


  1. On page 29 of the new book, "Chasing the SP in California 1953 - 1956" by Rod Crossley, there is a picture of #4459 in BLACK AND WHITE.

GS-4 Ladder

  1. Ladders on Espee's GS-4s were painted aluminum when delivered. Over time these were painted black, though a handful with post-1946 large SOUTHERN PACIFIC lettering (sans LINES) with aluminum colored cab access ladders, at least that's how they appear in *some* b&w images.

  2. Rob Sarberenyi


  3. The Daylight passenger cars all had cadmium-plated handholds and steps. I would suspect the locomotives had the same.

  4. Tony Thompson


  5. Bob Church's book. Pages 57 and 62 show the rear of s GS-4 cab. The handrails are light in color and uniform so they may well have been cadmium plated. The ladders are not plated and so were probably painted silver later in the build. The handrail lower brackets are also not plated and were probably painted with the ladders.


  6. Note that the cab ladders were attached to the locomotive for GS-4s and 5s and to the tenders on GS-2s and 3s.


  7. On page 109 of Wright's book there is a photo of the cab ladder attached to the tender. This ladder is not uniform in color and shows some signs of use. It appears to be painted.

  8. Ernie Fisch

GS-4 Cab Window

  1. Looking in Church's Daylight book, it appears that the window frames, when new, on the GS-4 & 5 engines may have been stainless steel. On a black painted engine, the windows are black.

  2. Jeff Cauthen


  3. Your safest route for a black GS-4 is black painted window frames.

  4. Charlie Morrill


Lettering & Numbering

  1. The #4449 uses "SP lettering gray" on its pinstripes, not white. Early color pics of GS Daylights show a silver metallic "sheen" on  their stripes, switched from aluminum bronze to silver (lettering gray) in 1947.


  2. Until 1950 the lettering and stripping color was "Silver Gray" drift panel 94. After this the color was changed to "Lettering Gray" drift panel 151. White was not used. Color drift panels 94 & 151 are close enough that it's hard to tell the difference. As to the black outlining, starting about 1953 the outlining was omitted from some Daylight painted GS-4's. The pattern was rather random, as if shop time and the inclination of the paint foreman decided the issue.

References

  1.                           (*see MM 11/99, pg. 20)

  2.                           (*see MM 12/99, pg. 37)

  3.                                                                                http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=395282

                                                                                  http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=395287

                                                                                  http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/pentrex/fmgst01.html

                                                                                  http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/pentrex/fm243.html

GS-4 Tender

  1. Photographs of high-located end numbers on GS-4 tenders include pg. 121, Signor's Tehachapi book and pg. 153 of Thompson/Signor, Coast  Line Pictorial. (they had their backup light mounted into the back face of the tender body).But in 1950, 4433 definitely had the lower location.

  2. Tony Thompson


  3. In Signor's Tehachapi book there is an excellent photo of the rear of 4448's tender. There are brackets for marker lights and the wiring conduit runs to each of the brackets. If the fixture is connected to the conduits, it is a junction box. Conduit runs to each bracket and to the rear light. The marker lights are not in place. They were probably stashed in one of the storage boxes on the tender for use in the rare case they were needed. It would appear that they are not carried normally. In several other photos, the markers are not in place.

GS-4 Tender Paint

  1. The side ladders on the tender were painted to match the stripes without the flat aluminum dividing stripes. 


  1. There was a larger black stripe at the bottom of the GS-4 and GS-5 tenders. The orange and aluminum bronze did not got below the rivet line.  

  2. Jeff Cauthen

GS-4 Tender Lettering

Number Location

  1. Back of the tenders. There are differences in how each type (black vs daylight) of GS was decorated and where the number goes on the rear of the tender on this black paint scheme.


  2. On the Daylight, it goes above the light between the silver stripes.


  3. The rear of a GS-4 painted in the black "war baby" scheme,  essentially it's just the standard black paint scheme a normal steam engine gets. The standard black paint schemes all have the number centered on the rear of the tender. A 1956 photo that shows the rear of the tender of black-painted #4431 is on page 68 of Dill's "Southern Pacific's San Joaquin Valley Line." Page 33 of "Daylight 4449's Family Album" has a photo of  #4431 taken in 1956 when the engine was painted all  black. A quick review of photos in books showed black-painted GS-4s having their numbers above the rear light (including #4431. 


  4. As clearly shown on page 369 of Bob Church's new book about the GS engines, it was centered, and located below the horizontal handrail below the rear light. Nearly every photo in the new book shows the number below that handrail. Whether this depends on era, hasn’t been determined.

  5. Tony Thompson 


  6. Regarding #4433, while the 1950 photo taken at the Alhambra roundhouse found in "Those Daylight 4-8-4's" shows its number below the rear light, a 1956 photo taken at Roseville on page 44 of Dill's "Southern Pacific's Historic Overland Route" shows the number for this engine above the rear light. In "Daylight 4449's Family Album"  has #4433, with its number painted below the light (photos of #4433 can be seen on pg. 45 of "Southern Pacific Lines Common Standard Plans".


  7. It is unknown if the location of engine numbers on the rear of tenders of black GS-4s depended on the era or if it was something done at the whim of shop forces.


  8. #4447 also for awhile had a red and orange-painted tender and cab with the skirts removed. See the photo on pg. 126 of Dill's "Southern Pacific's San Joaquin Valley Line." So, that makes the known number of GS-4s that carried this scheme stand at 10.


  1. In 1953, GS-4s were assigned to the LA, Coast, Tuscon, and Rio Grande divisions. #4452 was assigned to LA as part of the Coast Daylight Pool, in the Coast Division (10 GS-4s assigned to this pool, 2 in the LA Division, 8 in the Coast Division).

  2. Arved Grass


Modeling 4-8-4  GS-4

Paint

GS-4 Silver Stripe

  1. Use a black striping decal to give you the proper foundation for the edge striping which is the silver/grey and black on the edge. You should be able to find an appropriate source for the black decal. You can always piece HO scale strips lengthwise.


  2. Then place the black which could be the width of the two stripes together, if you decide to use the black as a foundation layer. Let completely dry and then place the silver/grey stripe at the inside edge of the black, leaving a correct black trim for the silver/grey stripe.


  3. As an alternative, you can place the black first and then silver/grey next (both correct striping width), but that might be more difficult.


  4. Decals are a bit easier than using paint, especially with a finished locomotive in your hands. No masking necessary, just some decals, distilled water, setting solution and a lot of patience. You can brush over with clear coat or possibly Future floor wax after to protect the decals.


Modeling 4-8-4  GS-4

Balboa/KTM GS-4 #4438

  1. Built by Katsumi of Japan. Among the great features is the skirts on this GS were separate and could be left-off if so desired. The air tanks, air pumps, piping etc. are included so it won't look naked. The loco runs absolutely superb!


  2. Photos of the GS-4 are in the Files section in a folder named "Espee GS-4 #4438"

  3.     Go to:                       http://shorterlink.com/?8IAPUZ


  1. The factory painted Balboa GS-4s were smooth under the skirts.  The un-painted models had the appliances in place.  The skirts were supplied separately. 

  2. Fred Holladay 

Balboa Electrical

  1. Remotor with a Canon can motor if you must.


  2. Ken Clark has a great webpage covering re-motoring these locomotives. Add a Tsunami decoder for your DCC use.

  3. Pat LaTorres

Paint

Balboa GS-4 Pilot

  1. The Balboa Daylight-painted GS-4 has a silver pilot. 

  2. Jim Lancaster


  3. Many of the factory painted GS-4 brass models made by Katsumi for Balboa, Westside, and Erie Limited came with solid silver pilots without the stainless bands. The pilot should be solid orange. In my research modeling GS series engines, You’ll never come across a photo of a Daylight painted GS with a solid silver pilot.

  4. Scott Inman

Bachmann Spectrum GS-4

  1. Bachmann SP GS-4 last version came out 1993 and was called a "Plus", and was not a Spectrum model. The present model is a poor performer and behind the curve as far as detail goes. It will negotiate tight curves.


  2. The lubrication is pretty poor and not consistent. With ANY Chinese (Bachmann / Genesis / Proto 1000/2000) your best bet is to clean out the factory lube and do your own with LaBelle of equivalent lubes. As a matter of policy, always check each loco before break in. Some do, some don't need lube on the gears. However, always lube the motion. Spectrum locos should be lubed before brake in.


  3. A few details are wrong like the trailing truck.  You may also want to think about adding Intermountain's ball bearing wheelsets to your passenger cars. They will reduce rolling resistance by a good 50%, and make it possible for a single GS to pull a respectable consist. They are a little pricey, but worth it.


  4. An article on upgrading a Bachmann Espee GS-4 is in the January 1995 issue of Mainline Modeler.


  1. Kadee calls for a Bachmann GS-4 to have a #37 coupler, but the #24 is shorter and more prototypical. The hole was reamed with the 3/32” drill and then use an appropriate screw.

Bowser GS-4 kit for Bachmann

  1. For anyone with a current Bachmann plastic GS, It’s recommended a Bowser conversion. It will give the locomotive some pulling power, which it currently lacks. The alloy chosen for the existing frame is much too light, and there is very little space to add weight. Add washers per the article in Model Railroader. Split Kadee coupler shims were added between the drivers and frame to eliminate excessive slop.


  2. Installed in a Bachmann GS-4, it still has the problem of pulling a fleet of coaches. The drivers would slip on a slight incline and the kit made it so heavy that the pilot truck couldn't roll across switches with out jumping off and it wouldn't stay on the track because drivers 2 & 3 didn't have a flange which would cause the first driver to jump off.

Paint

GS-4 Running board

  1. On a GS-4 painted "Daylight" colors, the running board outside adjacent to the cab, under the cab numbers - the deck tread - was painted black, like the running board forward of it. On a HO scale Bachmann GS-4 it is Black!

Reference

  1. Article on painting a Bachmann Espee GS-4 in the January 1995 issue of Mainline Modeler.


BLI GS-4

  1. The first batch of GS-4's will be post-war appearance. They say they will make the 1941 versions later, but haven't officially announced it yet. Pics show a modern-day gryalite, not the original mars light and has the aft-mounted numberboards too, so maybe the pre-pro is a 1953 version.


  1. Some of the problems mentioned are:

  2. - front truck derailing because of a badly-seated spring;

  3. - drivers out of gauge or wobbly;

  4. - possibly a quartering issue;

  5. - gearbox cover pops off, disengaging the worm from the worm wheel; 

  6. - hard to connect engine-to-tender wiring harness;

  7. - bad sound (worn exhaust chuff, ticking sound).

  8. - paint blemishes.


  9. The BLI looks much better than the MTH model but has bluish headlights, drive problems, and awful sound.

  10. Wouter J.K. De Weerdt


  11. Not very impressive given the cost. It has a tendency to derail. The exhaust sound also has a "tick" or "click" in it. Someone commented that this occurs because the sound loop has been poorly edited.

  12. Jim Lancaster


  1. The BLI Paragon engine is no longer available.

  2. Jerry Pascoe

BLI GS-4 vs. WSM/KTM GS-4

  1. The BLI has LED lights, the WSM had none.

  2. The BLI has plated pilot wheels, So does WSM/KTMs

  3. The BLI may have modeled the running board along the cab better than the KTMs

  4. TheBLI has painted tender ladders, but my KTMS did not

  5. The BLI runs smoothly at low speeds, so do my KTMs after installing a can motor and flywheel

  6. The BLI looks like it has 80" drivers, just like my KTMs and better than those MTH GS-4s

  7. The BLI has DCC/Sound, My KTMS had none and as a result had lighter tenders

  8. The BLI.has wires etc... for the DCC, the WSM had a wireless drawbar.

  9. Kenneth R. Clark

BLI Paint

  1. The colors on both MTH and BLI are very close.

  2. Wouter J. K. De Weerdt

BLI GS-4 Electrical

BLI GS-4 electrical issue

  1. There was shorting until I adjusted a spring that pushes the pilot truck onto the rails - fairly easily fixed once you figure out where the short is. It needed more pressure on the pilot truck. There was initially too little tension which caused the prongs of the spring to pop out of the depressions in the pilot truck and those prongs then would touch the pilot wheels and cause a short. The driving wheels spin freely - they aren't connected to the motor. Also the lights on the loco don't work which I'm guessing is a soldering issue.

  2. Kenneth Soward


  1. The BLI GS4 has the shorting issue, rear driver on engineers side shorts to frame. Put some kapton tape on on the chassis plus a thin nylon washer on the axle, between the back of the wheel and chassis, seems to fix most of it, thou it still had a couple shorts around the layout (before wasn't able to travel a foot between shorts), still more to look for. Also it would not pull the same daylight train around the layout.

  2. Michael Mosher


  1. A trick to find the contact points is to bum an old lipstick from your wife / gifrlfriend--apply to the flanges of the pilot truck wheels and run it thru the places where the short occurs. Then look for the marks on the frame and either carefully cut away or apply insulation.

  2. Glenn Joesten


  3. Not sure it's the pilot truck. It may be the first set of drivers. There's a lot of play in that axle on my GS-4 - both horizontal and vertical. The problem seems to always occur going through a turnout.

  4. Jim Lancaster


  5. The issue is the bronze spring that pushes the pilot truck onto the rails. The spring wasn't seated properly in the grooves on the top of the pilot truck and could contact the pilot wheels causing a short. Bending the spring a little to encourage it to stay put seems to have fixed the problem.

  6. Kenneth Soward


  7. This was a common problem on many HO brass GS-4 models; in curves the pilot wheels would short against the metal frame of the loco. Notches in the frame for the pilot wheels were not deep enough to handle vertical curves. Also can happen if the truck is reversed; most pilot truck center pivot screws are off-center.

  8. Kenneth R. Clark

BLI GS-4 DCC issue

  1. There are a couple of issues:

  2.     1. I entered a value of 6 into CV 227 to enable the automatic whistle signals. However, if I use Fn 9 to shut down and start up the loco, the programming is lost - signals are not enabled. If I shut down the loco by removing and restoring power, then use Speed Step 1 to restart, programming is retained; signals are enabled.

  3.     2. I entered values into CV 3 and 4 for inertia. In other BLI locos, that enables the brake on Fn 7. However, on this GS-4, there seems to be no brake, regardless of function.

  4.     3. There is a way to expand the functions available on the NCE ProCab by programming new values into the Option key. Has anyone tried this?

  5.     4. There is a way to have the functions emulate the Tsunami or other QSI keyboard. Has anyone tried this?

  6. Pete


  7. Yes, the Option key does give you access to functions thru F28. The key works for only one press, however, and you are automatically restored to F1-F12.


  8. Try remapping functions, changes that are done to the decoder. But it is a feature which I've used in other brand decoders. These changes hold thru anything except reset.


  9. My new GS-4 was a mess out of the box. My gear train was inoperative due to the housing coming unsnapped. This was easy to fix. I was getting constant driver derailments at turnouts set for either straight or curved, and any curve. If you check the driver gauges, and found my fourth driver set was so wide for about 30-40 degrees of rotation that it was forcing the wheels up out of the track.


  10. The danged engine and tender are pretty hard to cable together due to lack of visibility and the spring action of the tender cable. As long as you can store them together this will be OK.


  11. The sounds of the bell, whistle and airhorn are OK, but the chuff is not good. It has an uneven cadence, as if the valve gear were grossly misadjusted. If BLI recorded this as is, the engine needed service. The chuff also has a "tick" in it. This usually occurs because the chuff loop has been poorly edited, and is a beginner's mistake.


  12. BLI has plenty of experience with steamer production, but the driver and sound problems need more attention.

  13. Hal


BLI GS-4 Reference

                                                                              http://www.trainlife.com/videos/261/616/bli-gs4-daylight

Lettering & Numbering

  1. BLI GS-4 have the large lettering for post 1946 era.


Challenger

  1. Challenger 2430.1 SP GS-4 4441 Ptd. Black deskirted post ‘46

  2. They are available from Challenger Imports, as they brought in the 4439 in semi-Daylight and the 4441 in postwar black.

  3. Scott Inman


Key

  1. Key Imports SP GS-4 #4449 "Famous Trains" painted SP Daylight. The original smokebox front needs to be upgraded with corrected version obtained from Key.


KTM GS-4

  1. There was a KTM GS-4 with a Balboa Removable skirts engine with a WSM tender. All details behind the skirting (not applied) were

  2. already on the loco from the factory.

                                                                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJtfjBYOlQ4

                                                                              http://www.pbase.com/espeef5/image/67719319

                                                                              http://www.pbase.com/espeef5/image/67719320

                                                                              http://www.pbase.com/espeef5/image/67719322

  1. Rob Sarberenyi


  1. There was difficulty in attaching the separate skirting provided with the de-skirted models. The KTM Balboa engines came with mounting screws and tabs on the skirting that would allow putting them on or taking them off in about 30 seconds.

  2. Scott Inman

Electrical

  1. Install a Canon can motor in place of the open frame motor.

KTM GS-4 Tenders

  1. All the post-PFM KTM tenders had the ladders soldered to the tender sides instead of moved off the surface.


Mike’s Train House GS-4

  1. Mikes Train House made a black GS-4 with skirts.


MTH GS-4

  1. The MTH catalog shows an all black GS-4 #4452 without skirts.

  2. The MTH has undersized drivers for the GS-4 (should be 80” not 76”). It will pull 14 MTH plus 2 Genesis daylight passenger cars around a club layout easily.

  3.                                                                            http://www.mthtrains.com/service/ho/ps3/flywheel


  1. The MTH is not perfect. The MTH is a smooth runner, but -among others- the drivers are too small for a GS-4/5, and it has a gaping void under the cab and firebox.

  2. Wouter J. K. De Weerdt

MTH Paint

  1. The colors on both MTH and BLI are very close.

  2. Wouter J. K. De Weerdt

MTH Lettering & Numbering

  1. The lettering is off.

  2. Wouter J. K. De Weerdt

MTH GS-4 Electrical

  1. There are not many CVs available in the MTH, 1, 2, 3, 17, 18, 29, which is very annoying to speed match locos. Only program a Tsunami on the programming track regardless of what CV is being adjusted.

  2. Lou Adler


  3. A problem with MTH is you can't program any CV such as 3, 4, 5 ,6, and you can't use any number except the one on the locomotive.

  4. Bob Liberman


PFM GS-4

  1. Hundreds of PFM GS-4 models were built by the same builder that later produced refined versions for Max Gray, Balboa, West Side and PSC/Train Shop. PFM imported at least 2 runs of the GS-4 both with the center drivers blind for sharp radius track. Max Gray never imported anything so crude in a GS-loco as their loco was manufactured by the same folks that built Balboa's. PFM imported Katsumi (KTM) GS-4 models in 1958, 1959, and 1960 according to some sources. One source indicates a single hand built (Atlas) GS-4 imported in 1956 and again in 1957.

PFM GS-4 Tender

  1. It came with the early PFM tendet. All the post-PFM KTM tenders had the ladders soldered to the tender sides instead of moved off the surface.


Rivarossi  4-8-4

  1. Rivarossi are rereleasing a revised version of their 4-8-4 UP FEF-3 at the end of March 03 which is going to be DCC ready, again the 1930's period is incorrect for that loco but at least it worked passenger trains.

SP  GS-4 Sounds in new SoundTraxx Tsunami decoder

  1. The new SoundTraxx Tsunami sound decoder has added the sound of the 4449 GS4 air horn to the decoder having the rest of the 4449 sounds. The air horn is programmed as an alternate whistle. The F2 button normally sounds the regular whistle, but when F3 is pressed, F2 will play the horn sound.


Westside GS4

  1. Westside made good models that are nicely weighted, pull well, and are good runners.

  2. Alan Houtz


  3. A remotored Westside GS-4 with Tsunami should cost about as much as or a little bit more than a BLI or MTH, but has a bullet-proof drive and can be ballasted to increase its pulling power.

  4. Wouter J. K. De Weerdt

Westside GS4 Tender

  1. The Westside first run tender had smaller rivet detail on the tender and the last West Side imported run had the "Skyline Casing Pox (rivets representing flush, flathead screws)" on the engine

Paint

  1. GS4s by Westside are painted in the "Daylight" colors. You have to paint the fire box and the smoke box Graphite gray.

  2. Bob Liberman

Westside GS4 Pilot

  1. They have the face of the pilot painted silver. It should have the pilot painted either just orange or orange with the aluminum bands.

  2. Only black GS’s had silver pilots and Westside was wrong.

  3. Bob Liberman


  4. In the 50s period, then the pilot will be correct if you paint it orange.

  5. Jim Scott



4-8-4  GS-5

  1. GS-5 #4458-59 put on 98/99.


Details

Skirts

  1. All GS's lost their skirts, the majority in 1950. Twelve engines, 4448-4459, kept their skirts until about 1955.


  2.         Number          Skirts and Black Paint      Repainted Daylight              Skirts Removed

  3.          4458          Daylight paint as late as 3-1953                  .      by 8-1955

  4.          4459          Daylight paint as late as 7-1953                  .      by 5-1955

Whistle

   GS3 thru 5 locomotives came from Lima with a deep "steamboat" 3-chime whistle, not the SP 6-chime.

  1. All of the GS-3 thru GS-6 engines had the Hancock three chime "long bell" low note whistles. and were in regular service.

  2. Charles Givens


   The only GS that wore a 6-chime was 4460 in its last years of operation, though there may have been others so-retrofitted.


Paint

  1. Thus the following information only provides a general picture of changes to a locomotive over its career. It does not tell exactly when an engine was painted black, or when it was repainted in Daylight colors. Diebert and Strapac, in their Southern Pacific Steam Locomotive Compendium, provide dates when skirts were removed (with a few exceptions).


  2. All of these engines came new painted in Daylight colors. However, during WWII at least some engines were repainted black. Apparently this happened about 1942-1943 and lasted until 1946-1947 or as late as 1949 on some engines. Photographic evidence is scarce for GS-5's during the war (and one or two years subsequent) so it is unclear how many engines in these classes may have been repainted black. Most GS-5's stayed in Daylight colors through this period. For the GS-5's I have indicated the last date with Daylight paint still present. Some facts are obvious from this listing.


  3. One is left wondering which GS-5 was the last to operate in Daylight paint. According to Charles Givens, all other GS-5's were almost immediately deskirted after the last 4-8-4 powered trains on January 7, 1955. Charles saw a pile of Daylight skirts at Bayshore removed from several engines in mid January, 1955. To cloud the issue, Doug Richter took a photograph of 4455 in San Francisco on Feb. 17, 1955, as says that it was just out of the Bayshore Shops and was the last Daylight paint job on a GS. They were experimenting with a new type of paint. So we still are not sure <which engine last ran in Daylight colors.

GS-5 Ladder

  1. You'll find ladders on Espee's GS-5s were painted aluminum when delivered. Over time these were painted black, though a handful with post-1946 large SOUTHERN PACIFIC lettering (sans LINES) with aluminum colored cab access ladders... at least that's how they appear in *some* b&w images.

  2. Rob Sarberenyi


  3. The Daylight passenger cars all had cadmium-plated handholds and steps. I would suspect the locomotives had the same.

  4. Tony Thompson


  5. Bob Church's book. Pages 57 and 62 show the rear of s GS-5 cab. The handrails are light in color and uniform so they may well have been cadmium plated. The ladders are not plated and so were probably painted silver later in the build. The handrail lower brackets are also not plated and were probably painted with the ladders.


  6. Note that the cab ladders were attached to the locomotive for GS-4s and 5s and to the tenders on GS-2s and 3s.


  7. On page 109 of Wright's book there is a photo of the cab ladder attached to the tender. This ladder is not uniform in color and shows some signs of use. It appears to be painted.

  8. Ernie Fisch

GS-5 Pilot

  1. The "bands" that came from the factory were not painted, but were strips of natural aluminum. In builder photos you can see that they are raised above the surface of the pilot.

  2. Tony Thompson


  3. There are a bunch of photos where the bands were simply painted over with orange paint in latter years.

  4. Paul Lyons

GS-5 Skirting

  1. There is a 2" (apx.) black band at the lower edge of the side skirting. Look at Church's Those Daylight 4-8-4's page 64 &65 compare the black line to the silver, it is certainly not a 3/4" band.

  2. Ed Hall


  1. Photos of skirting on as-built locomotives, for example pages 117 and 131, show about 3/4-inch of black showing below the 3/4-inch aluminum bronze lower skirting stripe. This seems to have continued in later years, see pages 120, 122 and 133. But it is certainly not a 2-inch band.

  2. Tony Thompson


  3. From photos, the bottom black band is the same width as the aluminum bronze band above it, and that band is called out on the

  4. drawing as 3/4-inch. There IS a black stripe below the aluminum bronze, and it IS about the same size,

  5. Tony Thompson

GS-5 Cab Window

  1. Looking in Church's Daylight book, it appears that the window frames, when new, on the GS- 5 engines may have been stainless steel. On a black painted engine, the windows are black.

  2. Jeff Cauthen

Lettering & Numbering

Star

  1. The star indicated that the drive axles were equipped with the S.P.'s automatic spring pad lubricators and a circle of dots indicated roller bearings. There were only two roller bearing equipped steam locomotives on the S.P., that would be the two GS5, Daylight locomotives #4458 and #4459.

  2. Bob Knoll


  3. Check the revised edition for complete accuracy on the driver types. Bob Church in both that revised Mt book and in his new book on GS engines states that the star (and the circle of dots on GS-5 drivers) was white.

  4. Tony Thompson


Tender

GS-5 Tender Paint

  1. SP drawing for this paints scheme says there should be a 3/4-inch black stripe at the bottom of tender color area, but does not show it on the locomotive skirting. See for example Church's Daylight book (the recent one), page 391. Photos in Bob's book clearly show this black band on tenders (for example page 357).


  1. There was a larger black stripe at the bottom of the GS-4 and GS-5 tenders. The orange and aluminum bronze did not got below the rivet line.  

  2. Jeff Cauthen

Modeling 4-8-4  GS-5

Details

Trailing Truck

PSC

  1. PSC #3462 GS-5 trailing truck sideframe.

  2. PSC #3399 6 wheel Buckeye trucks, Timkin bearings . 6 wheel (33") 9'10" wheelbase Brass kit

Lettering & Numbering

San Juan Decals

  1. The sheet you need for the roller balls is SJD-600a/b will give you the appropriate decals based on the paint scheme of your GS-5.

  2. Charlie Givens designed the most accurate SP Steam decals that have been produced for the HO modeler. They were originally printed by Foothill Model Works and are currently produced by San Juan Decals.

  3. They can be acquired here:                                  http://www.sanjuandecals.com/sp-decal-sets.html

  4. Scott Inman


Challenger Imports

    Challenger 2431.1 SP GS-5 4459 Ptd. Daylight skirted post ’46


Katsumi (KTM)

Lettering & Numbering

    #4459

Katsumi Electrical

Remotor & ReGear

  1. Age has nothing to do with the problems of using the OEM motor and gearbox with DCC. The real problem is wimpy decoders that fry with the high stall current of older motors and a reluctance to insulate the OEM motor from the frame. Most likely your KTM gearbox is still better than the ones used in the latest Korean models. Your gear ratio is either 27:1 or 37:1; KTM made idler and non-idler cast gearboxes of both ratios. Determining the gear ratio will help choose an appropriate motor. My KTM GS engines have 37:1

  2. gearboxes and Sagami 2032 can motors (about 9000 RPMs). They have a top speed at 12 volts of around 80 smph.

  3. Kenneth R. Clark


  4. See the repowering guide for KTM SP Models at:   www.shastasprings.com

  5. There is an excellent Yahoo group "repower and regear" dedicated to this subject.


Westside

GS-5 Pilot

  1. The pilot is all silver and smooth, rather than orange with silver metal horizontal strips across it.

  2. The other issues are minor: the front numberboard is not painted red, and the radiator housing is not rimmed in silver.

  3. Kevin Perez


  1. You have to decide how you want the pilot painted: a) the pilot painted like it was repainted in the 50s, b) all orange without the bands, and not like it came from the factory.


  1. Repainted the pilot on the Westside GS-5 to the correct Daylight Orange with no aluminum bands. After tinting Floquil Daylight Orange to match the Westside Daylight Orange. Also "widen" the Daylight Orange band below the cab side windows just slightly to accomodate the correct height numbers plus the class data below the numbers. It won't fit if you don't widen it.

  2. Paul Chandler

GS-5 Skirting

  1. Another detail that NO-ONE knows about or models is a 2" (apx.) black band at the lower edge of the side skirting. When painting the model, use a 1/16" black line Microscale decal, anything smaller is too hard to keep straight and it looks great. That stripe is REALLY REALLY small, no mater if it's 3/4" or 2" or something in between.

  2. Ed Hall




4-8-4  GS-6  

  1. #4460, 4461

  2.     

  3. War Babies10 built               

  4. The later GS-6 class had one generator and all weather cabs. They were dual service locomotives. The war board allowed more GS locomotives to be built but without skirting and without the dual headlights but with the larger driving wheels.

Details

Drivers

  1. The later GS-6 class had 73" drivers. The war board allowed more GS locomotives to be built but with the larger driving wheels.

Whistle

   GS3 thru 6 locomotives came from Lima with a deep "steamboat" 3-chime whistle, not the SP 6-chime.

  1. All of the GS-3 thru GS-6 engines had the Hancock three chime "long bell" low note whistles. and were in regular service.

  2. Charles Givens

Paint

  1. Most of these two GS series locomotives were painted black by 1946.


  1. See Church's Southern Pacific Daylight Locomotives, pages 137-141. We know that the pilot trim was not white, I would suggest that the rails & running board edges be done in silver, and the tires & wheel rims be done in white.

  2. Alan Houtz

GS-6 Pilot

  1. From 1950 to the end no GS-6 had strips when new and had black pilot’s later.

  2. Bob Liberman

GS-6 Handrails

  1. Some GS6 locomotives had the engine and tender handrails painted along with the ladders. Photographs suggest two things: first, that this was evident only when locomotives were new, and that it was silver (aluminum bronze) paint, not white. But I don't have a definitive answer.

  2. Tony Thompson

GS-6 Ladder

  1. You'll find ladders on Espee's GS-6s were painted aluminum when delivered. Over time these were painted black, though a handful with post-1946 large SOUTHERN PACIFIC lettering (sans LINES) with aluminum colored cab access ladders... at least that's how they appear in *some* b&w images.

  2. Rob Sarberenyi


  3. The Daylight passenger cars all had cadmium-plated handholds and steps. I would suspect the locomotives had the same.

  4. Tony Thompson


  5. On page 109 of Wright's book there is a photo of the cab ladder attached to the tender. This ladder is not uniform in color and shows some signs of use. It appears to be painted.

  6. Ernie Fisch

GS-6 Cab Window

  1. The GS-6 had a different color window frame in the builder's photos and were wood to save steel due to WWII. Steel cab doors and window frames were painted the cab color.

  2. Jeff Cauthen


GS-6 Tenders

  1. No SP 6-wheel commonwealth trucks on Vanderbilt tenders had roller bearings. Roller bearings tender trucks only existed on the two GS-5 engines, #4458 and #4459.


  2. Photos of GS-6 tenders show the lower location in a couple of books, including page 126 of  Coast Line Pictorial (they had their backup light atop the tender, not mounted into the back face of the tender body).


  1. #4460 has a 235-R-1 tender off a GS-4. You can clearly see the old Daylight striping under the black paint on the tender. That's not surprising the way SP swapped tenders around.

References

                                                                               Quick Pic Book on the GS-6's


  1. The data found on page 411 of Robert J. Church's book "Southern Pacific Daylight Locomotives" lists the following information for the build date and disposition for GS-6 #4460.

   Rob Sarberenyi

                                                                               (*see PT2-147)

Modeling 4-8-4  GS-6

Bachmann

  1. Bachmann models without shirts are an entirely different locomotive class.


  1. There was an article in the 1970s in a magazine named Railroad Modeler on converting Lionel's (later became the Bachmann model) HO scale GS-4 to a GS-6. The author covered removal of the skirts and subsequent adding of detail, changes to the headlight housing on the smokebox, and since this also covered a Western Pacific GS-6, addition of elephant ear smoke lifters.

  2.                                           http://www.index.mrmag.com/tm.exe?opt=I&MAG=RRM&MO=8&YR=1977

Balboa

  1. Westside made good brass models that are nicely weighted, pull well, and are good runners. Even if you have to remotor and install a Tsunami decoder, you'll still be much better (and probably cheaper) off.

  2. Alan Houtz

Mike’s Train House GS-6

  1. Mikes Train House made a WP GS- 6 that you can take off the smoke deflectors. and use it as an SP version.

  2. Bob Liberman

MTH

  1. The MTH GS-6 is actually a GS-4 dressed up to resemble a GS-6. The driver size is incorrect, among other things. The model have 76" drivers. The real GS-6 have 73" drivers. MTH is using the same chassis for both the GS-4 and the GS-6. It will pull well.

  2. Alan Houtz


  3. It has grossly oversized rivets, the tender sits strange on its trucks, the lettering looks off, the lack of detail underneath the firebox, the not-so-great looking lower headlight, the thickness of the skirting next to the pilot ladders, the not fully DCC compatible decoder, the not-so-nice train indicator boards, the puffing smoke, the stiff price.

  4. Tony Thompson


  1. There’s a huge empty space underneath the firebox, it’s missing the bell, and the whistle sound is off too: it's an SP&S, not SP 6-chime.

  2. Wouter J.K. De Weerdt

MTH Electrical

  1. The MTH products can be challenging to program on DCC.

Sunset Models

  1. (Prestige Series).

Westside

  1. A bras model. Even if you have to remotor (the gearbox itself should be fine - a bulletproof KTM product) and install a Tsunami decoder, you'll still be much better (and probably cheaper) off.

  2. Wouter J.K. De Weerdt


  1. Westside made good models that are nicely weighted, pull well, and are good runners.

  2. Alan Houtz

Lettering & Numbering

Decals 

Champs                         

  1. Steam locos

Foothill Model Works   

  1. Steam locos for post ‘46 painting, complete tender data includes headlight, train indicator board, cab side data

San Juan Decals

  1. Charlie Givens designed the most accurate SP Steam decals that have been produced for the HO modeler. They were originally printed by Foothill Model Works and are currently produced by San Juan Decals.

  2. They can be acquired here:                                 http://www.sanjuandecals.com/sp-decal-sets.html

  3. Scott Inman

Thin Film Decals    

  1. Steam locos


4-8-4  GS-7  

  1. #4475 - 4487


  1. Originally a SSW Class L-1 engine. Bought by the SP and renumbered in 1953.

Reference

                                                                            Trainline #117, pg. 30-40


4-8-4  GS-8  

  1. #4488


  1. Originally a SSW Class L-1 engine. Bought by the SP and renumbered in 1956.

Reference

                                                                            Trainline #117, pg. 30-40



4-10-2

  1. The "SP- Class" #5000-5048 series were the 3-cylinder 4-10-2's, given the name "Southern Pacific" class on the SP. SP had three classes-- SP-1, SP-2, and SP-3. They were built by ALCo for the SP. All the ten-coupled locos on the SP were known as "Decapods" -- "Decks" for short. The 4-10-2's were known as the "Stuttering Decks" for their off-beat exhaust. #5021 survives in Southern Calif.

  2. Glenn Joesten


  1. SP class 4-10-2's did not use the standard whistle, but one with a somewhat higher pitch. 

Reference

  1.                                                                             Three Barrels of Steam , Boynton

                                                                               http://tinyurl.com/SP-4-10-2s

                                                                               http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-10-2

                                                                               http://espee.railfan.net/sp_steam_southern-pacific.html

Drawings

  1. Al Armitage drew the SP 4-10-2 in The Locomotive Cyclopedia Volume 1 and the July 1996 Mainline Modeler.


4-10-2  SP-1

  1. #5000-5005


  2. Blt by Schenectedy  1922

  3. They were built by ALCo for the SP.

  4. #5000 was probably assigned to the LA Division, at least in 1953.

  5. You would have that occasional 4-10-2 going between LA and SLO, but the 4-10-2s were all but banned from going over Cuesta.

Details

  1. Main driver spoke, boiler-tube pilot, one sand dome, deflect stack (clam shell stacks) no cab deflect, Sunbeam headlight


  2. SP class 4-10-2's did not use the standard whistle, but one with a somewhat higher pitch. 


  3. The SP 4-10-2s, like the UP 4-10-2s and 4-12-2s, used Gresley conjugated valve motion (which is what you'd find on a 3 cylinder locomotive with 3 sets of valve gear) to control the valves on the middle cylinder. A recording of an LNER engine, such as Mallard, or Flying Scotsman will have the 1-2-3, 1-2-3 sound of such an engine, if you happen to come across such a recording.


  4. Alco had the license for Gresley's patent in the US and used it on their 3 cylinder engines built for SP and UP (and possibly other lines). Baldwin 3 cylinder locomotives had 3 sets of Walschaerts.


  5. It is important to recognize that there was NO SUCH THING as Gresley valve gear. The valve gear was Walschaerts, which Gresley himself used on his British engines. What Gresley did was apply a lever to provide the valve motion for the inside cylinder, taking it from the two outside cylinders (each controlled by Walschaerts gear) via a "conjugated lever" and thus avoiding having to have another set of valve gear inside the frame. There have been comments by engineers who handled the SP 5000s that when properly set up and recently maintained, their pulling power was smooth and impressive.

  6. Tony Thompson

Reference

  1.                                                                            Three Barrels of Steam, Boynton


4-10-2  SP-1 Tender

  1. 16,000 gal. Vanderbilt tender,                            (*see T-28/13),

Modeling 4-10-2  SP-1

Max Gray

  1. Max Gray 4-10-2 had two domes not three. They had only one sand dome.

  2. Bob Liberman

Electrical

4-10-2  SP-1 Max Gray Repowering Guide

  1. Install a NWSL ball bearing gearbox, can motor and flywheel in an older Max Gray SP-1 4-10-2. The Final Draft version of the repowering guide can be viewed at:

  2.                                                                        http://shastasprings.com/repower/MG_SP-1/MG-HO_SP-1_4-10-2_Repower-2009.htm

  3. Kenneth R. Clark

Key

  1. There was a Key version too. The Key model would have better detail. Key made both 2 and 3 domes.

Westside / KTM

  1. They were brought in in the early to mid 1970's. There were two runs, both virtually identical. A superb loco, it ran beautifully and was repowered with a Canon can motor.

  2. See photos of #5005 here:                                  http://www.pbase.com/espeef5/brass_steam


  3. Katsumi (KTM) built locos are perhaps the finest you can own if you actually plan to OPERATE your brass locos. They are rugged and smooth runners. KTM was the best of all the Japanese builders of HO brass steam locos.


  1. Some Westside 5000 class engines will run on a 30" curve.

Lettering & Numbering

Decals

San Juan Decals

  1. Charlie Givens designed the most accurate SP Steam decals that have been produced for the HO modeler. They were originally printed by Foothill Model Works and are currently produced by San Juan Decals.

  2. They can be acquired here:                                 http://www.sanjuandecals.com/sp-decal-sets.html

  3. Scott Inman

Electrical

4-10-2  SP-1 Westside/ KTM Repowering Guide

  1. Install a NWSL ball bearing gearbox, can motor and flywheel in an older Westside/KTM SP-1 4-10-2. The methods used will work on older KTM models with the non-idler gearbox and 63" drivers. See several photos to incorporate into a repowering guide for older KTM models like the SP-1. The Final Draft version of the repowering guide can be viewed at:

  2.                                                                        http://shastasprings.com/repower/MG_SP-1/MG-HO_SP-1_4-10-2_Repower-2009.htm


  1. Later run KTM model with the idler gearbox are easier jobs and similar methods for them are shown in my basic repowering page.

  2. Kenneth R. Clark


4-10-2  SP-2

  1. #5016-5038

  2. Blt by Schenectedy 1926  retired 1953-1955


  3. #5021 main driver disc, covered pilot , one sand dome, open stack) (#5036 two sand domes, deflect stack).

Tender

  1. 16,000 gal. Vanderbilt tender.

Reference


Modeling 4-10-2  SP-2

  1. An SP 4-10-2s were three-cylinder locos are not done in plastic.

Kitbash

  1. Built one using a Bowser 2-10-0 mechanism with some additional frame length added between the cylinders and the first driver to make room for the four wheel engine truck (or pony truck). The real chore is constructing the boiler and cab, and finding a smokebox front. Got one from a Rivarossi IHB 0-8-0, another three cylinder locomotive, so it has the flat bottom for the third cylinder operating rod. Making the Gresley valve motion appear to operate might be tricky. Considering other model projects, this one issn't too difficult.


  2. The tenders are readily available in plastic and are fairly accurate, and fairly inexpensive.

Reference

                                                                                (*see MM 7/96)

Westside

  1.                                                         http://dl.dropbox.com/u/80998212/SP-4-10-2/L_all.JPG

  2.                                                         http://dl.dropbox.com/u/80998212/SP-4-10-2/R_all.JPG

  3.                                                         http://dl.dropbox.com/u/80998212/SP-4-10-2/L_eng.JPG

  4.                                                         http://dl.dropbox.com/u/80998212/SP-4-10-2/R_eng.JPG

  5.                                                         http://dl.dropbox.com/u/80998212/SP-4-10-2/R_in_box.JPG

  6.                                                         http://dl.dropbox.com/u/80998212/SP-4-10-2/Top_eng.JPG

  7.                                                         http://dl.dropbox.com/u/80998212/SP-4-10-2/Bottom.JPG

  8.                                                         http://dl.dropbox.com/u/80998212/SP-4-10-2/Backhead.JPG

  9.                                                         http://dl.dropbox.com/u/80998212/SP-4-10-2/Box_inside.jpg

  10.                                                         http://dl.dropbox.com/u/80998212/SP-4-10-2/Box_end.JPG



4-10-2  SP-3

  1. #5039-5048


  2. post-war version, #5048 main driver disc, covered pilot, two sand domes, open stack (flared stack), no cab deflect, Pyle headlight, replacement disk drivers, blowdown mufflers


  3. SP-3 Center driver flange  = 22'-10"

  4. Ernie Fisch

Reference

Drawings

  1. SP Engineering Drawings of the SP-3 class are available here:

                                                                                http://www.livesteamlocomotives.com/drawings/sp_sp-3_4-10-2.htm


Tender

  1. 16,000 gal. Vanderbilt tender

Modeling 4-10-2  SP-3

Westside / KTM

  1. It was a good runner.

 
Southern Pacific Lines
S.P. Steam Locomotives
Steam Engine Types
4-8-0    Twelve Wheelers
4-8-2    Mountain
4-8-4    General Service
4-10-0   El Gobernador
4-10-2   Stuttering Decks
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